Author Topic: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred  (Read 3600 times)

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2017, 04:55:00 PM »
Dough in at 110F and hold for 10-15m before you jump to your next temp to get your 4vg working.


You need a high (meaning not acidified in any way) pH and at least 30 minutes for anything to really happen.. FYI.

That's right, not insanely high, 5.7-8 then acidify your mash after the acid rest. Which a Munich water profile should be pretty easy to get that ballpark at the start of your mash.  However, correct me if I am wrong, I believe it takes at least long enough for 4VG to develop before the pH actually drops to an ideal pH range for mashing if you are not using acid.

that's why it's called an acid rest.

Thats a kind of a misnomer. The mash would spoil before you brought the acid down enough to make it beneficial.

Even overnight is not enough.

not sure I'm understanding you. I'v edone overnight kettle sour rests at ~110 that ended at pH 3.8. granted the mash was manipulated to provide the correct pH to start with and I couldn't tell you at what point it had dropped the 2 points you are looking at here, but Lactic bacteria can work pretty fast at  optimum temps
I'm with you, experience and the texts I have say otherwise.  I don't have the time to pull a snipit, but the acid rest does stabilise the mash pH, 10-15minutes is plenty of time for 4VG to develop, and I have been doing it that way for a year with flawless balance of clove and banana.  Previously my beers where banana bombs, they were drinkable, but lacked that balance and complexity.

When done right, weissbier should be as drinkable as a pils, but complex enough to showcase the Noblility of the style.  Dont forget this was not a peasant beer...

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2017, 05:45:06 PM »
"Character of wheat beers
As a result of the typical aroma components
which are formed by wheat beer yeast, these
beers also have typical aroma impressions
which differ considerably from bottom
fermenting beers [201]:
The typical wheat beer aroma is mainly influenced
by 4-vinyl-guaiacol (0.2-3.2 ppm,
mean value 0.5-0.7 ppm), whose flavour in
large quantities fits into higher alcohols and
esters (flavour threshold 0.7 mg/I).
The formation of 4-vinly-guaiacol (clove
aroma) is aided by
• low mashing-in temperatures,
• long 45 °C rest,
• a mash pH of 5.7 - 5.8, no mash acidification,
• at least 40 % part barley malt,
• the strain of yeast,
• fermentation temperatures of 20-24 °C,
• one or two yeast cycles and
• early harvesting of the yeast."


The gold standard Hefeweiss mash is the maltase mash. Which features a 45c rest for ~60 minutes. After the 60 minutes the mash pH is still above 5.7.


Duration of 45 °( rest (min) Aroma impression
               0         10           25
phenolic   1.2       2.1           3.3
estery      4.1       3.4          2.6
yeasty      1.8       2.6          2.8



A rest of at least 10- 15 minutes should be
observed to achieve a clear phenolic aroma
Mash acidification suppresses the release of the
ferulic acid and thus the formation of 4-viny~
guaiacol. On the other hand, an extended 45c
rest reduces the occurrence of an estery aroma.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 06:15:50 PM by The Beerery »

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 07:11:38 PM »
Some of that information is either mistyped or falsely reported. Ferulic acid takes far less time to be created in the 113F than 1 hour.

Reported test of 45C ferulic acid test

5.6mg/L @ 15m
6.6mg/L @ 30m
6.8mg/L @ 60m

-Eddie Collins & ibd.org

Likewise a 4VGmg/L end of fermentation

0.57mg/L @ 15m
0.62mg/L @ 30m
0.62mg/L @ 60m


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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2017, 07:57:07 PM »
Sorry, thats Kunze, and I believe him over anyone else you have!  ;)

Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2017, 08:01:41 PM »
Doesn't mean the measured values or levels are wrong.  To disprove the reported values you would have to discredit it with measured values...

So would Kunze.  And just because 'he' reported it, doesn't mean he was testing the values himself.

Also,  I'm not saying he's not an authority in the industry but he's not without flaw.

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« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 08:03:31 PM by JJeffers09 »
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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2017, 08:12:35 PM »
Doesn't mean the measured values or levels are wrong.  To disprove the reported values you would have to discredit it with measured values...

So would Kunze.  And just because 'he' reported it, doesn't mean he was testing the values himself.

Also,  I'm not saying he's not an authority in the industry but he's not without flaw.

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I have the latest edition of K, it was put in circulation in 2016. It is part of the classroom studies and requirements of all the European Brewing Universities. It highly discussed and debated, if it was incorrect it would have been corrected, just like other things in the revision before it (which I have). So until they come out with a new version and its corrected I am following that. I don't mean that as a knock or a slam. I know myself, and I am not worthy to challenge it. It's all good..You do it your way and I will do it mine.


Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 08:51:42 PM »
I have the same copy, thanks to some people around here... 😉😉.  Anything I read I have to experiment for my own palate.  I have not had your weissbier, so I can only subject my experience on my own beers. 

For me no one should say they dislike all weizens until they try Ayinger.  JMHO.

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Offline denny

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2017, 08:58:26 PM »
I have the same copy, thanks to some people around here... 😉😉.  Anything I read I have to experiment for my own palate.  I have not had your weissbier, so I can only subject my experience on my own beers. 

For me no one should say they dislike all weizens until they try Ayinger.  JMHO.

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I have and it didn't sell me.  I have found one version I like better than others, and it's homebrewed by a guy in WI.  I won't say I dislike all weizens, only that I haven't found one yet that I truly like.
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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2017, 09:21:03 PM »
I have the same copy, thanks to some people around here... 😉😉.  Anything I read I have to experiment for my own palate.  I have not had your weissbier, so I can only subject my experience on my own beers. 

For me no one should say they dislike all weizens until they try Ayinger.  JMHO.

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I have and it didn't sell me.  I have found one version I like better than others, and it's homebrewed by a guy in WI.  I won't say I dislike all weizens, only that I haven't found one yet that I truly like.

I lOVE all Ayinger has to offer, but I am going to have to say I like W's Hefeweiss bier more.

Offline denny

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2017, 09:52:11 PM »
I lOVE all Ayinger has to offer, but I am going to have to say I like W's Hefeweiss bier more.

I just don't care for the weizen flavor profile.  Too sweet for my tastes.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2017, 10:00:39 PM »
I'm an outlier - I love the clovey Schneider Weisse. Not a banana bomb fan, in hefe or Belgians. I do like Ur-Weisse though.
Jon H.

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2017, 10:40:25 PM »
I lOVE all Ayinger has to offer, but I am going to have to say I like W's Hefeweiss bier more.

I just don't care for the weizen flavor profile.  Too sweet for my tastes.

Interesting hefe is usually 1.051-3 to 1.010 so it's definitely not sweet as in unfermented sugar sweet.



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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2017, 11:51:45 PM »
I have the same copy, thanks to some people around here... 😉😉.  Anything I read I have to experiment for my own palate.  I have not had your weissbier, so I can only subject my experience on my own beers. 

For me no one should say they dislike all weizens until they try Ayinger.  JMHO.

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I have and it didn't sell me.  I have found one version I like better than others, and it's homebrewed by a guy in WI.  I won't say I dislike all weizens, only that I haven't found one yet that I truly like.
Now I want to make you try mine, and be the 2nd guy from IN... just saying

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2017, 12:27:24 AM »
I have the same copy, thanks to some people around here... .  Anything I read I have to experiment for my own palate.  I have not had your weissbier, so I can only subject my experience on my own beers. 

For me no one should say they dislike all weizens until they try Ayinger.  JMHO.

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I have and it didn't sell me.  I have found one version I like better than others, and it's homebrewed by a guy in WI.  I won't say I dislike all weizens, only that I haven't found one yet that I truly like.
Now I want to make you try mine, and be the 2nd guy from IN... just saying

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I'll be your huckleberry, if you want some feedback.


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Offline Andy Farke

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Re: Re evaluating hefeweizen hatred
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2017, 04:09:02 PM »
I tried a few hefeweizen beers early in my craft beer journey and wrote them off. I tried a local ish hefeweizen today and loved it . Susquehanna so wheat is the beer. Very little banana which is what turned me off. Any advice on brewing a low banana Weiss. Seems like wyeast 3638 is the way to go for yeast

For those who have easier access to White Labs products, I had pretty decent luck with White Labs WLP300, held at around 64 degrees for fermentation -- it definitely kicked the balance more towards clove than banana.
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