Author Topic: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.  (Read 3942 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 01:22:03 AM »
Kai said in his recipe for Edelhell that, in the absence of the ability to step mash, a single @ 152F for 90 mins was a decent approximation. I did it quite a few times in the day and liked the beers.
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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 12:07:57 PM »
Kai said in his recipe for Edelhell that, in the absence of the ability to step mash, a single @ 152F for 90 mins was a decent approximation. I did it quite a few times in the day and liked the beers.

Right. The extended rest time makes up for the fact that you have very low β amylase activity going on at that temperature.

It's the same principle for using longer mash times with temps above 148 °F. Since β amylase activity starts to drop of considerably at or above 147 °F, longer rest times allow the diminished β activity to work on the mash and still get decent fermentibilty.

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 04:13:59 PM »
A single rest at 153F will span both alpha and beta ranges and  will be sufficient for 95+% of your brewing. That said, the best way to know what a particular rest will do is to try it for yourself. It's not going to ruin a beer.

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I have to disagree here. β will be largely inactive at 153 °F. If you are going to choose a single infusion rest temperature, I'd say you are better served choosing a lower temperature.

In the end, single infusion mashing is a very useful compromise, especially given the fact that some people cannot direct fire step mash. Set aside esoteric flavor discussions and the "better or worse" argument between step mashing and single infusion. The true beauty of the step mash is how it gives complete control of the wort composition to the brewer.

One of the greatest overviews I have seen came from an article of Brauwelt that detailed a multi step mash. It talked about ideal β rest temperatures and times, particularly the half life of β amylase at those temperatures:

144 °F (20 minutes gives ~ 46% of β amylase activity)

147 °F for (10 minutes gives ~25% additional of β amylase activity while 10 more minutes here gives ~10% additional β amylase activity)

153 °F (20 minutes. By the time you enter this rest there is no residual β amylase activity, although the ramp from 147 °F to 153 °F will likely net an additional 5% β amylase activity)

162 °F (30 minute α amylase rest. This promotes full body)

171 °F (10 minute mashout promotes glycoproteins and other foam positive substances)

A nice compromise would be 144 °F for 18-20 minutes, 147 °F for 8-10 minutes, Step through 153 °F on the way to 162 °F where you rest for 30 minutes then mashout for 10 minutes at 171 °F.

For a single infusion, a temperature between 147-150 °F may be ideal.

IIRC both Greg Doss (when he was at Wyeast) and Kai both reported maximum fermentabily for single infusion mashes at 153F using Pils Malt. That is what I remember, haven't looked at those in some time. Greg presented at an NHC, so you might find that on the NHC page.

Your thoughts? I have have had good results on certain beers using a single at 153F. US 2-row is so "hot" in DP that big breweries say the mash is pretty much converted when they are done mashing in 200 bbls. For some malts I see where a step mash is they way to go, for US malts, not so much.

I'd be curious to know the mash time that G. Doss and Kai recommend for that temperature. You have to think about it along the lines of the Single Infusion being a compromise between the various elements of mash chemistry. That doesn't mean it's bad it just means that there is an inherent compromise when the amylase enzymes each have their own desired pH ranges and temperature ranges.

I can see 5 step mash like the one outlined in the Brauwelt article as semi-equivalent to a single infusion mash at a higher temperature when mashed for longer. If you truncate the various beta amylase rests in the previously posted diagram down to the half-life values of beta amylase at those temperatures, and assume a 1 C/min ramp between steps, you'd get the following:

144 F (20 min rest)
147 F (2 min ramp, 10 min rest)
153 F (3 min ramp, 5 min rest)
162 F (5 min ramp, 30 min rest)
171 F (5 min ramp, 10 min rest)

for a total of  90 minutes, including ramp times. Now if by mashing a single temperature in a "tweener" range for beta and alpha amylase, and extending the rest to 90 minutes, you get a similar fermentability from your wort, than that works out great. You lose a bit of control but in the end single infusion offers a compromise for those who may not have the means to step mash, or an SOP for those who can and just prefer not to.

Either way, it tends to be the same amount of time.

Offline denny

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 04:26:33 PM »

I'd be curious to know the mash time that G. Doss and Kai recommend for that temperature. You have to think about it along the lines of the Single Infusion being a compromise between the various elements of mash chemistry. That doesn't mean it's bad it just means that there is an inherent compromise when the amylase enzymes each have their own desired pH ranges and temperature ranges.

I can see 5 step mash like the one outlined in the Brauwelt article as semi-equivalent to a single infusion mash at a higher temperature when mashed for longer. If you truncate the various beta amylase rests in the previously posted diagram down to the half-life values of beta amylase at those temperatures, and assume a 1 C/min ramp between steps, you'd get the following:

144 F (20 min rest)
147 F (2 min ramp, 10 min rest)
153 F (3 min ramp, 5 min rest)
162 F (5 min ramp, 30 min rest)
171 F (5 min ramp, 10 min rest)

for a total of  90 minutes, including ramp times. Now if by mashing a single temperature in a "tweener" range for beta and alpha amylase, and extending the rest to 90 minutes, you get a similar fermentability from your wort, than that works out great. You lose a bit of control but in the end single infusion offers a compromise for those who may not have the means to step mash, or an SOP for those who can and just prefer not to.

Either way, it tends to be the same amount of time.

Greg's presentation is at https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/resources/conference-seminars/ .  You'll have to log in with your AHA member data. It was from the 2012 conference  Of the top of my head is seems like he did a 60 min. rest.
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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2017, 04:37:53 PM »

I'd be curious to know the mash time that G. Doss and Kai recommend for that temperature. You have to think about it along the lines of the Single Infusion being a compromise between the various elements of mash chemistry. That doesn't mean it's bad it just means that there is an inherent compromise when the amylase enzymes each have their own desired pH ranges and temperature ranges.

I can see 5 step mash like the one outlined in the Brauwelt article as semi-equivalent to a single infusion mash at a higher temperature when mashed for longer. If you truncate the various beta amylase rests in the previously posted diagram down to the half-life values of beta amylase at those temperatures, and assume a 1 C/min ramp between steps, you'd get the following:

144 F (20 min rest)
147 F (2 min ramp, 10 min rest)
153 F (3 min ramp, 5 min rest)
162 F (5 min ramp, 30 min rest)
171 F (5 min ramp, 10 min rest)

for a total of  90 minutes, including ramp times. Now if by mashing a single temperature in a "tweener" range for beta and alpha amylase, and extending the rest to 90 minutes, you get a similar fermentability from your wort, than that works out great. You lose a bit of control but in the end single infusion offers a compromise for those who may not have the means to step mash, or an SOP for those who can and just prefer not to.

Either way, it tends to be the same amount of time.

Greg's presentation is at https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/resources/conference-seminars/ .  You'll have to log in with your AHA member data. It was from the 2012 conference  Of the top of my head is seems like he did a 60 min. rest.

I'm not a member but you could modify the schedule I posted above to get a something akin to 60 min. rest at 153 F while maintaining a roughly equivalent time:

147 F (20 min rest)
162 F (8 min ramp, 30 min rest)
171 F (5 min ramp, 10 min rest)

Again, it's a matter of preference and equipment. I know the main thing I try to get from a step mash is the best of all worlds: attenuation, body and foam. I do it because for me it's easy to step on my PID controlled burner and I love the results of hitting both beta and alpha amylase at their optimal temperatures.

There are levers to pull that bring step mashing and single infusion into a sort of rough equilibrium. In the end it's about control of variables.

Offline denny

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 04:49:48 PM »
Interestingly enough, I've been playing with step mashes lately.  I just got a Connect controller for my Grainfather, so it's easy to program the rests.  I've been doing 131 for 10, 145 for 30 and 158 for 30.  At this point, the beers are indistinguishable from those made with a single 153 60 min. rest.  I intend to keep testing.
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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2017, 04:51:51 PM »
Interestingly enough, I've been playing with step mashes lately.  I just got a Connect controller for my Grainfather, so it's easy to program the rests.  I've been doing 131 for 10, 145 for 30 and 158 for 30.  At this point, the beers are indistinguishable from those made with a single 153 60 min. rest.  I intend to keep testing.

You may try bumping the alpha rest up to 162 F for the same duration and mashing out at 171 for 10 minutes.

If you do, report back.

Offline denny

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2017, 05:26:58 PM »
Interestingly enough, I've been playing with step mashes lately.  I just got a Connect controller for my Grainfather, so it's easy to program the rests.  I've been doing 131 for 10, 145 for 30 and 158 for 30.  At this point, the beers are indistinguishable from those made with a single 153 60 min. rest.  I intend to keep testing.

You may try bumping the alpha rest up to 162 F for the same duration and mashing out at 171 for 10 minutes.

If you do, report back.

Alpha rest increase I'li likely try.  Not sure there's any reason to do a mashout, though.
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Offline denny

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2017, 05:37:18 PM »
Actually, now that I think about it, I may try a mashout.  The Grainfather takes a while to get to a boil.  I haven't noticed overly fermentable beers from not doing one, but it would be interesting to see if there's a difference.
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Offline Philbrew

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2017, 06:41:36 PM »
What happens when you go the other way?  You start out a single infusion at 152* but your tun insulation isn't the best so that after an hour you're at 145*.
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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2017, 07:13:05 PM »
What happens when you go the other way?  You start out a single infusion at 152* but your tun insulation isn't the best so that after an hour you're at 145*.

Likely you will have denatured the enzymes that work at lower temps by that point so it would do nothing.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2017, 09:03:38 PM »
I'm big on single infusion, almost always do.  And, I don't believe beta amylase is denatured as fast as some folks might be led to believe.  I think it lasts a good while, such that starting a mash at 152 F which then falls to like 145 F within say 45 minutes (like mine does!) still allows people (like me!) to reap most of the benefits of beta.  My beers usually attenuate pretty normally depending on strain, like in the 70s for many yeasts or up to 80-82% for US-05 (which I use quite a bit), which I think is all pretty normal.  Sure, many of your English yeasts will attenuate less in the 60s like normal too.  But I haven't noticed anything odd, and I really don't fret over insulating the mash tun.  I just aim a few degrees high then let it fall.  I say all this, and, I only mash for 40-45 minutes on average, which should in theory reduce my attenuation even more.... but it really doesn't.  Maybe by a couple percent, but not where I'd really notice it too much.  Sure, if I want super high attenuation, I'll mash longer, and it does improve attenuation.
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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 09:19:15 PM »
I'm big on single infusion, almost always do.  And, I don't believe beta amylase is denatured as fast as some folks might be led to believe.  I think it lasts a good while, such that starting a mash at 152 F which then falls to like 145 F within say 45 minutes (like mine does!) still allows people (like me!) to reap most of the benefits of beta.  My beers usually attenuate pretty normally depending on strain, like in the 70s for many yeasts or up to 80-82% for US-05 (which I use quite a bit), which I think is all pretty normal.  Sure, many of your English yeasts will attenuate less in the 60s like normal too.  But I haven't noticed anything odd, and I really don't fret over insulating the mash tun.  I just aim a few degrees high then let it fall.  I say all this, and, I only mash for 40-45 minutes on average, which should in theory reduce my attenuation even more.... but it really doesn't.  Maybe by a couple percent, but not where I'd really notice it too much.  Sure, if I want super high attenuation, I'll mash longer, and it does improve attenuation.

OK, you believe it.  Any evidence you can offer?
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 09:43:02 PM »
OK, you believe it.  Any evidence you can offer?

Well, I haven't done laboratory-quality experiments, but here's specific numerical data from my last 10 batches so you can review it and decide for yourself if you think I'm full of crap:



Yes, these were all single infusions.  Temperatures are averaged over the course of the mash, typically starting about 3-4 degrees higher and falling 3-4 degrees lower than the numbers reported.

Cheers.
Dave

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Offline denny

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Re: Mash rests, their functions, and when to use them.
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2017, 10:29:26 PM »
OK, you believe it.  Any evidence you can offer?

Well, I haven't done laboratory-quality experiments, but here's specific numerical data from my last 10 batches so you can review it and decide for yourself if you think I'm full of crap:



Yes, these were all single infusions.  Temperatures are averaged over the course of the mash, typically starting about 3-4 degrees higher and falling 3-4 degrees lower than the numbers reported.

Cheers.

 But there's nothing there that says that temp drop caused that kind of attenuation.  It could be any number of things.
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