Author Topic: Company won't supply RO Water Report  (Read 1915 times)

Offline towen27

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Company won't supply RO Water Report
« on: August 28, 2017, 05:48:21 PM »
I have been trying to work with getting my RO water from a local company for brew days. When I asked the company for a water report they would not provide it, but instead asked what information I needed to know. After going back and forth on what ions I was interested in I still don't have all the information. I thought since they provided water for sale that this information would need to be provided when asked for it. If this is the case, is there something I could point them to, say from the FDA, that shows this information has to be provided on request? Thanks!

Offline mchrispen

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 05:56:19 PM »
Theoretically, you should be able to treat RO water much like distilled. In reality, there are likely residual ions present, especially if they do not properly maintain their filters. A cheap TDS meter should give you an idea, and allow a comparison of TDS before and after filtering. My home RO system gets me about 97% in TDS efficiency. If they are providing commercial RO - they should be able to estimate (and prove IMO) that they are achieving a high efficiency with repeatable results. I am not aware of any FDA requirements unless it is bottled and labeled and sold on the shelf.


If it is actually spring water (or more likely just bottled from tap), then a water quality report is warranted. The typical government required water report will not cover much of what a brewer will require... it is primarily about water safety and sanitary deliver to homes.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 06:06:23 PM »
To add to a Matt's reply, the primary standards deal with contaminants that are harmful. Those must be published by a municipal water system. The secondary standards are not required. Only some of the brewing ions are in the secondary standards.

My town has the primary, but doesn't do secondary as not required.

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/national-primary-drinking-water-regulations


https://www.epa.gov/dwstandardsregulations/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals

Edit Ward Labs test W6 is what I used, and found that I should use RO water. I recently got an RO system, and it takes the TDS from ~630 to 13 ppm.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 06:08:43 PM by hopfenundmalz »
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Offline towen27

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 06:07:42 PM »
Theoretically, you should be able to treat RO water much like distilled. In reality, there are likely residual ions present, especially if they do not properly maintain their filters. A cheap TDS meter should give you an idea, and allow a comparison of TDS before and after filtering. My home RO system gets me about 97% in TDS efficiency. If they are providing commercial RO - they should be able to estimate (and prove IMO) that they are achieving a high efficiency with repeatable results. I am not aware of any FDA requirements unless it is bottled and labeled and sold on the shelf.


If it is actually spring water (or more likely just bottled from tap), then a water quality report is warranted. The typical government required water report will not cover much of what a brewer will require... it is primarily about water safety and sanitary deliver to homes.

That is what I was hoping for, but for instance the Na was 21 ppm. The TDS was reported as 61 as well. Is that too high to be treated as distilled?

Offline mchrispen

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 06:38:48 PM »
Not sure the information makes sense. At 21 ppm NA, that is 1/3 of the ion content given a 61 ppm TDS. If you know at least the alkalinity, that could possibly be great brewing water.


I would use the RO setting in Bru'n Water, which has some minimal ions in balance, as opposed to all 0's. It's a good start. Take measurements when brewing and compare to the pH estimate. I would guess your measurements might be a tic higher, assuming some buffering, but not substantially.

Personally, I would probably order the Ward's Kit that Jeff mentioned or just buy a cheap aquarium KH/Alkalinity tester to get an idea of the carbonate/bicarbonate content and guess at the rest. There is a converter on the Water Input page that can help make the conversion.
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Offline towen27

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 06:40:29 PM »
To add to a Matt's reply, the primary standards deal with contaminants that are harmful. Those must be published by a municipal water system. The secondary standards are not required. Only some of the brewing ions are in the secondary standards.

My town has the primary, but doesn't do secondary as not required.

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/national-primary-drinking-water-regulations


https://www.epa.gov/dwstandardsregulations/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals

Edit Ward Labs test W6 is what I used, and found that I should use RO water. I recently got an RO system, and it takes the TDS from ~630 to 13 ppm.

What size of RO system do you have? When I was looking to price one out with a 30 gallon tank, it was fairly pricey.

Offline towen27

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 06:48:52 PM »
Not sure the information makes sense. At 21 ppm NA, that is 1/3 of the ion content given a 61 ppm TDS. If you know at least the alkalinity, that could possibly be great brewing water.


I would use the RO setting in Bru'n Water, which has some minimal ions in balance, as opposed to all 0's. It's a good start. Take measurements when brewing and compare to the pH estimate. I would guess your measurements might be a tic higher, assuming some buffering, but not substantially.

Personally, I would probably order the Ward's Kit that Jeff mentioned or just buy a cheap aquarium KH/Alkalinity tester to get an idea of the carbonate/bicarbonate content and guess at the rest. There is a converter on the Water Input page that can help make the conversion.

Yeah, that test kit was going to be my next step, but I wanted to see if there was a way I could get the water quality report from the company before paying for my own test.

Here is all the information I could get from them:

Quote
Calcium - ND
Magnesium - ND
Sulfate - 3.8
Sodium - 21.1
Chloride - 5.2
Bicarbonate - Not Listed
Carbonate - Not Listed

Potassium - ND
Iron - ND
Nitrate - 0.73
Nitrite - ND
Fluoride -  ND

Alkalinity - Not Listed
TDS - 61

These were listed as mg/L. I was a little thrown off by no Alkalinity readings being listed. This was after going back and forth with them 4 or 5 times...

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 09:24:56 PM »
To add to a Matt's reply, the primary standards deal with contaminants that are harmful. Those must be published by a municipal water system. The secondary standards are not required. Only some of the brewing ions are in the secondary standards.

My town has the primary, but doesn't do secondary as not required.

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/national-primary-drinking-water-regulations


https://www.epa.gov/dwstandardsregulations/secondary-drinking-water-standards-guidance-nuisance-chemicals

Edit Ward Labs test W6 is what I used, and found that I should use RO water. I recently got an RO system, and it takes the TDS from ~630 to 13 ppm.

What size of RO system do you have? When I was looking to price one out with a 30 gallon tank, it was fairly pricey.

150 gallons per day. No tank, I run into my kettles before I brew. It was ~$180 shipped.

RO system have come down a lot since I looked at them back in 2000.
Jeff Rankert
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BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Company won't supply RO Water Report
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 09:31:53 PM »
I do not believe water bottlers are required to produce any information beyond the normal FDA nutrition labeling and ingredients. If they are not adding minerals to the water then merely describing it as water is sufficient.
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