[UnequivocalBrewing]

Thanks for answering as the information is good.  I don't think it directly answers the question though.

Just so I'm educated on board etiquette, why are you saying "hijacking alert"?  My question is directly related to the original post, is it not?

[dmtaylor]

Thanks for answering as the information is good.  I don't think it directly answers the question though.

Just so I'm educated on board etiquette, why are you saying "hijacking alert"?  My question is directly related to the original post, is it not?

I am a scientist; however, I am not sciency enough to respond directly to your question in a manner consistent with what has been said before.

Your question is different enough, and this thread is old enough (6 years!), that some folks might ask you to form a new thread rather than resurrecting a dead one.  Some moderators and forums are more finicky about this than others.  If it were me, I would have initiated a new thread.  Personally I don't really care but I can see how some would.

[The Beerery]

Just reading through this thread.  I know the consensus is that a lower mash PH with a lower attenuating yeast should be sweeter than a higher mash PH with a higher attenuating yeast. 

The question I have is using the same lower attenuating yeast (say Wyeast London III 1318), what is going to create a sweeter finish...a higher mash temp or lower mash temp?  Conventional wisdom is that the higher mash temp would create the sweeter finish.  However, I'm wondering if the higher mash PH creates more body but actually a drier perception?

Mash temps, or more so the higher FG's they usually leave, to me, does not make the beer sweeter, just less crisp and muddy. It's not a sugar sweet it's a blah (not crisp or sweet, just meh). If you want body, and sweetness don't mash for a FG, mash for maximum FG (say 1.007) and then halt fermentation with some of residual extract left. The Germans routinely do this depending on beer style.

A beer mashed at 156, ending at 1.016, is going to be worlds different than a beer mashed at 147 with a FG of 1.008, but stopped at 1.016.  To me the first will be blah, but the second will have much more body, and a nice sweetness. Play with the extract % remaining to taylor to what you are after. Germans typically target .5%-6% depending on beer style.

[UnequivocalBrewing]

The Beerery - this is exactly what I'm trying to get at, thanks!  My thinking is that a yeast like 1318 London Ale III may naturally arrest itself way before getting to something like 1.007 so if I mash low it may provide me with some residual sweetness which would be a nice balance in a hoppy IPA with some dryish water treatment.  I know it seems counter-intuitive but I wanted to see if there is any merit in this thinking.

dmtaylor - thanks for the explanation on the etiquette.  seems like folks are responding so we will roll with it for now.

[The Beerery]

  I know it seems counter-intuitive but I wanted to see if there is any merit in this thinking.

Plenty of merit. It's how I do all of my beers and the Germans have been doing it for hundreds of years. Not so much on an IPA per say, but that shouldn't matter.

[Philbrew]

and then halt fermentation with some of residual extract left. The Germans routinely do this depending on beer style.

Is this done by dropping temperature?

[The Beerery]

and then halt fermentation with some of residual extract left. The Germans routinely do this depending on beer style.

Is this done by dropping temperature?

Yup, thats one way.

[stpug]

As is centrifuge and/or filtration, which are not overly practical for the homebrewer.

[dmtaylor]

Gelatin and sorbate could work, especially if you're kegging.  If bottling... not so much, as the sorbate will significantly inhibit natural carbonation.

[UnequivocalBrewing]

I know you could drop temp and knock out fermentation but I'm more interested in knowing the behavior if you just maintain temperature...but just use a less attenuative yeast.  I could be wrong but If I'm starting at say 1.065 and I make a very fermentable wort I still don't think a yeast like Wyeast 1318 would drive that thing lower than 1.012.  The difference between 1.012 and where a more attenuative yeast strain could take it is all residual sweet sugar?  Something like WLP001 might be able to drive it to 1.008 and it would be very dry.

The only place I get hung up on this is that if I raise mash temp I'm still getting somewhat the same effect from the low attenuation yeast but at a higher FG level.  If I mash that same wort at 156 for example I don't think 1318 could get it much lower than 1.016-1.018.  But at that point I don't think an IPA at 1.018 is something I want to produce.

Thoughts?

[ynotbrusum]

Interesting to speculate, but I would brew small batches and find out for yourself.  One other thing to remember within the ale yeast spectrum is that the ale yeasts already don't metabolize some sugars that lager yeast will do (and some Brett strains will metabolize even more things).  You might also want to focus on creating or avoiding fermentability using sugar or other adjunct, for example.   

My guess is that in terms of resultant gravities from mashing at different temperatures and talking in terms of different flavor profiles without doing more, the same yeast may react differently to those worts of varying compositions (i.e., worts from different mashing temperatures alone).  The next level would be to play with arresting attenuation, once you lock into a particular yeast strain that you like to get a different flavor profile or level of body.

Again, really interesting and thought provoking discussion - even though its an old thread.  Heck, if it keeps Dave over here and not over at HBT, it is worth getting into it.