Author Topic: Water hardness question...  (Read 2114 times)

Online denny

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2017, 10:34:28 AM »
Reading the "Foam" article referenced above, it says
  'Also never use carapils/carafoam as it is actually very foam negative.'

Huh??
I would like more information on this because it runs counter to everything else I have heard.

It's fairly well recognized that cfoam/cpils don't do much for foam, and only minor amounts for body.  There are better ways to improve those aspects in beer besides using grains such as these.  Even denny recognizes the lack of usefulness cpils is thought to have on foam production.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29980.msg394026#msg394026

As detailed in this article (http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques), if you don't have foam problems, adding foam positive elements won't help.  Of if you have certain foam issues (not that you do), adding foam positive elements won't help.  I long ago concluded from my experience that wheat and carapils do nothing for foam, at least in the ways homebrewers usually think of.  I use carapils to add body if needed.

"even Denny"...heh heh....

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2017, 10:38:11 AM »
One one of the podcasts, I think Beersmith, Bamforth said they found caramels to be foam negative.
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Offline Richard

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 12:19:56 PM »
In my experience, the best ingredient to add for increasing foam is DME. For my stronger beers I use some DME to keep my grain bill small enough that I can lift the bag easily, and I notice that those beers have much thicker and more persistent foam than those without DME. That tells me that it is about the mashing process, so I am about to stop using carapils and just add 8 oz DME to every brew instead (with appropriate OG adjustments).

Offline stpug

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2017, 12:32:53 PM »
Reading the "Foam" article referenced above, it says
  'Also never use carapils/carafoam as it is actually very foam negative.'

Huh??
I would like more information on this because it runs counter to everything else I have heard.

It's fairly well recognized that cfoam/cpils don't do much for foam, and only minor amounts for body.  There are better ways to improve those aspects in beer besides using grains such as these.  Even denny recognizes the lack of usefulness cpils is thought to have on foam production.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29980.msg394026#msg394026

As detailed in this article (http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques), if you don't have foam problems, adding foam positive elements won't help.  Of if you have certain foam issues (not that you do), adding foam positive elements won't help.  I long ago concluded from my experience that wheat and carapils do nothing for foam, at least in the ways homebrewers usually think of.  I use carapils to add body if needed.

"even Denny"...heh heh....

Well, with the large percentage of folks to follow your word without question, I thought that sentence would go a looooooooong way ;).  Pretty big complement to have such a following in the homebrewing world.

Online denny

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 12:48:31 PM »
Well, with the large percentage of folks to follow your word without question, I thought that sentence would go a looooooooong way ;).  Pretty big complement to have such a following in the homebrewing world.

Thank you!  To me, it sounded like it should be followed with "and everybody knows he's an idiot!"  ;)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 12:52:17 PM by denny »
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Offline stpug

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2017, 01:23:33 PM »
Well, with the large percentage of folks to follow your word without question, I thought that sentence would go a looooooooong way ;).  Pretty big complement to have such a following in the homebrewing world.

Thank you!  To me, it sounded like it should be followed with "and everybody knows he's an idiot!"  ;)

No, no, no.... Pragmatic? Yes. Idiot? Not even remotely!

Online denny

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2017, 01:45:09 PM »
Well, with the large percentage of folks to follow your word without question, I thought that sentence would go a looooooooong way ;).  Pretty big complement to have such a following in the homebrewing world.

Thank you!  To me, it sounded like it should be followed with "and everybody knows he's an idiot!"  ;)

No, no, no.... Pragmatic? Yes. Idiot? Not even remotely!

Thanks again.  Maybe you just don't know me well enough!  ;)
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 02:08:31 PM »
It occurs to me that you guys probably wouldn't be able to pinpoint any changes since you're not standing next to me when I brew.  :P  That said, I suppose it could be a combination of things that have all had a positive impact on my beers overall including the head.  The part about the shorter boil time is very interesting to me and I mentioned that over on my main board too... with so many homebrewing myths I usually wonder about changing something in my process because I'm afraid it might detract from my beer.  In the case of boiling for a shorter time, it's possible that there may actually be a benefit and I didn't even think about that.  I've been brewing since 1999 and I have heard many myths and people like Marshall (Brulosophy) and others have done some great work to debunk things over the past few years.  Cheers.

EDIT:  Denny, the other thing I'm seeing is that the BTB seems to really have some impact on clarity which I understand is one of its benefits.  You know I'm a clear beer freak but between the 'smoother, softer' beer, the better head formation and the clarity, I'm a very happy brewer lately.  :D

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 02:29:52 PM »
EDIT:  Denny, the other thing I'm seeing is that the BTB seems to really have some impact on clarity which I understand is one of its benefits.  You know I'm a clear beer freak but between the 'smoother, softer' beer, the better head formation and the clarity, I'm a very happy brewer lately.  :D

Ken, I've only done one side by side with BTB but I saw a real difference.  Now that I'm using it in every batch I really think my beers are clearer and better tasting.  As soon as I have time ot brew more, I want to do more side by sides.  Also, EB will be releasing our results of an aging experiment with BTB soon.
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2017, 06:49:43 PM »
I'm kind of excited to try some things out from this, my foam stability has never been great on my beers.

Something else I've noticed on the subject of foam, most commercial beers never seen to have great foam stability in my experience. Is this a freshness issue, or something that falls to the wayside because our market is foam neutral or averse?

Offline Richard

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2017, 05:33:37 PM »
One one of the podcasts, I think Beersmith, Bamforth said they found caramels to be foam negative.

I just dug out that BeerSmith podcast from 2011, where Bamforth is called the "Pope of Foam", and he says the exact opposite.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/09/28/head-retention-with-the-pope-of-foam-beersmith-podcast-23/

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water hardness question...
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2017, 07:07:48 PM »
One one of the podcasts, I think Beersmith, Bamforth said they found caramels to be foam negative.

I just dug out that BeerSmith podcast from 2011, where Bamforth is called the "Pope of Foam", and he says the exact opposite.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/09/28/head-retention-with-the-pope-of-foam-beersmith-podcast-23/
Then I did not remember that correctly. Edit, though 2011 seems too long ago.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 07:10:56 PM by hopfenundmalz »
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