Author Topic: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?  (Read 1738 times)

Offline Brew'n w Kopper Kat

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Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« on: October 20, 2017, 06:11:04 PM »
I recently converted the Amarillo Pale Ale recipe (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/amarillo-pale-ale/) to be a 30 minute boil all DME recipe using ideas from these two posts: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29885 & https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29617.0 .  The results came out well for the 1st iteration. It was fun to see the color come out as described in the 1st topic.  So a 'thank you' to those who offered advice in those topics!  On to my question.

If you brew DME/LME with 'ultra-short' boils (15 minute ?, 5 minute?, heat just enough to pasteurize?), how do you adjust the hop rates when converting from a recipe with a more typical hop schedule?



Offline Stevie

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2017, 08:34:06 PM »
Math. Software and web based recipe platforms can do the work for you. Shorter boil = more hops.

Offline Brew'n w Kopper Kat

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 06:55:24 AM »
I've 'played with the sliders' briefly on a couple of different automated recipe calculators and get meaningfully different results. 

Any insights into the equations that model this portion of the brewing process?   
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 06:57:33 AM by Brew'n w Kopper Kat »

Offline denny

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 08:53:49 AM »
For my 20 min. boil recipes I increase the bittering hops by 50%.
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Offline Stevie

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 09:21:46 AM »
Look in how to brew. There you will find all the hop utilization equations.

Offline Brew'n w Kopper Kat

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 03:41:10 AM »
Look in how to brew. There you will find all the hop utilization equations.

Thanks Stevie and Denny.  I missed/overlooked 4th edition of HtB on my initial search, and the numbers/equations/models I was looking for are in there.  Plenty of 'food for thought' that should pair nicely with a good homebrew. 

Offline el_capitan

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 06:33:17 PM »
What's the motivation for the short boils?  Is the extra half an hour of time worth using double the hops?  There's still all the time of getting it up to a boil, as well as chilling.  I use the boil time to sanitize my fermenter and clean up my other gear. 

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 06:45:29 PM »
Because homebrewers in general boil off way to much (commercial systems average ~5%), and the TBI index is off the charts.  So a shorter boil evaporates less generally and most people notice better beer.  But in reality you could just lower your evaporation and achieve the same thing with 60. 


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Offline el_capitan

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 06:50:18 PM »
Gotcha.  One big change I'm noticing with the Grainfather is the vastly reduced boiloff.  I'm still dialing the system in, but that was a surprise.  I usually brew outdoors over propane.  I wonder if there is a reduction in boiloff due to the increased humidity and ambient temperature when brewing indoors?  I'm guessing that's a factor, but that's hard to quantify.

Offline Brew'n w Kopper Kat

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2017, 07:56:10 PM »
As I noted in reply 5 (above), I got the answers to my original questions.  The use of those results is coming out better than hoped for a first attempt.   

In the off chance that my replies (below) will spark something useful (to me), I'll offer some short answers to the questions raised.  Apologies in advance if they come across as terse (which is not my intent).

What's the motivation for the short boils? 
Curiosity. 

Is the extra half an hour of time worth using double the hops? 
I currently am in a position where I can 'optimize' my homebrewing hobby for enjoyment (curiosity, good results, ...), and not have to make time / cost trade-off when I brew.

There's still all the time of getting it up to a boil, as well as chilling.  I use the boil time to sanitize my fermenter and clean up my other gear.
After seeing Brewing When You Have No Time (Getting More out of Your Limited Brewing Time) by Sachin “Chino” Darji at HomeBrewCon this past summer, I'm pretty comfortable with how I use my time during my brew sessions.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 09:30:29 PM by Brew'n w Kopper Kat »

Offline denny

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 09:40:33 AM »
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil.  I up the bittering hops by 50% to compensate for the short boil.
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Offline Steve Ruch

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 11:30:52 AM »
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil. 

And I thought I was daring by going down to 45 minutes.
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Offline Brew'n w Kopper Kat

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2017, 05:46:46 PM »
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil. 

And I thought I was daring by going down to 45 minutes.

So far, for my BAIB batches, 30 minutes is as low as I've gone (pales & ambers).   For my darker ales, I'm still "old-school" with 60 minute mash/boil - under the belief that the extra boil time will produce some favorable flavors.  Looks like I'll have to schedule a couple of side-by-side "test" batches. 

On the DME side, I'm really happy with the flavors I got by "hop steeping" Citra - for my taste, it's soooooo much smoother than the classic @10 / @ 5 aroma hop addition. 


Offline el_capitan

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 08:16:04 PM »
As I noted in reply 5 (above), I got the answers to my original questions.  The use of those results is coming out better than hoped for a first attempt.   

In the off chance that my replies (below) will spark something useful (to me), I'll offer some short answers to the questions raised.  Apologies in advance if they come across as terse (which is not my intent).

What's the motivation for the short boils? 
Curiosity. 

Is the extra half an hour of time worth using double the hops? 
I currently am in a position where I can 'optimize' my homebrewing hobby for enjoyment (curiosity, good results, ...), and not have to make time / cost trade-off when I brew.

There's still all the time of getting it up to a boil, as well as chilling.  I use the boil time to sanitize my fermenter and clean up my other gear.
After seeing Brewing When You Have No Time (Getting More out of Your Limited Brewing Time) by Sachin “Chino” Darji at HomeBrewCon this past summer, I'm pretty comfortable with how I use my time during my brew sessions.

Sure, man.  Brew what you like, however you like to brew it.  Sorry for questioning your motivations.  Peace out, homey.

Offline Brew'n w Kopper Kat

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Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2017, 09:17:23 PM »
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil. 

And I thought I was daring by going down to 45 minutes.

So far, for my BAIB batches, 30 minutes is as low as I've gone (pales & ambers).   For my darker ales, I'm still "old-school" with 60 minute mash/boil - under the belief that the extra boil time will produce some favorable flavors.  Looks like I'll have to schedule a couple of side-by-side "test" batches. 

On the DME side, I'm really happy with the flavors I got by "hop steeping" Citra - for my taste, it's soooooo much smoother than the classic @10 / @ 5 aroma hop addition.

Thanks again Denny, Stevie, & Steve for the insights and comments.