Author Topic: medicinal bite - astringency?  (Read 2226 times)

Offline goschman

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medicinal bite - astringency?
« on: October 21, 2017, 01:08:28 PM »
First off, I realize this is missing a lot of components to be a NEIPA so let's go with 'hazy IPA'. I am getting this sort of medicinal hop bite at the back of my mouth. I have gotten this is in a lot of NEIPAs which is why I have been a bit leery of the substyle that this is influenced by. It's kind of like a combination of hop bitterness, citrus pith, and aspirin that just sits on the palate and almost burns. Is it possibly related to my water profile in combination with a reasonably low FG/yeast choice? Maybe because of a considerable bittering charge when a lot rely mostly on all late hops?

61% Pilsner
21% Wheat
16% flaked oats
2% caramunich III

30 g Nugget 60 min
56 g Equinox 2 min
56 g Cascade 2 min

28 g Equinox Dry Hop day 3
28 g Simcoe Dry Hop day 3
28 g Amarillo Dry Hop day 3

28 g Equinox Dry Hop day 7
28 g Simcoe Dry Hop day 7
28 g Amarillo Dry Hop day 7

Water:
Ca - 87
Mg - 6
Na - 25
SO4 - 50
Cl -150
mash pH = 5.4

OG 1.056
FG 1.009
56 IBU
US05 yeast
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 06:25:55 AM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting:
Up Next: Red Rye Ale, Black Lager

Offline denny

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 01:23:09 PM »
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 01:24:40 PM by denny »
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Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 02:28:07 PM »
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting:
Up Next: Red Rye Ale, Black Lager

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 02:48:00 PM »
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?


I don't brew NEIPAs (as of yet), but that level of late and dry hopping isn't out of line with my hopping and I don't get medicinal character from an 8 oz hop stand and 5 oz dry (or more on each). So I don't think it's the hopping in and of itself. Not being a NEIPA brewer, I don't know the interplay between the higher levels of oats and other ingredients including higher CaCl2 levels. 1056/001/05 should be no factor. Any chance of infection? Medicinal fits there.


Edit -  Or maybe it's a different beer in a week as it sits and mellows/comes together. Be sure to post how it comes out. Sorry not to be more help.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 02:50:36 PM by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 02:54:51 PM »
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?


I don't brew NEIPAs (as of yet), but that level of late and dry hopping isn't out of line with my hopping and I don't get medicinal character from an 8 oz hop stand and 5 oz dry (or more on each). So I don't think it's the hopping in and of itself. Not being a NEIPA brewer, I don't know the interplay between the higher levels of oats and other ingredients including higher CaCl2 levels. 1056/001/05 should be no factor. Any chance of infection? Medicinal fits there.


Edit -  Or maybe it's a different beer in a week as it sits and mellows/comes together. Be sure to post how it comes out. Sorry not to be more help.

Thanks Jon. Going in the keg next week so maybe so time will help. I have noticed this character in some real neipa examples which is what originally worried me.
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting:
Up Next: Red Rye Ale, Black Lager

Offline erockrph

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 09:48:18 AM »
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?

My IPA's aren't exactly the NEIPA style, but they share the heavy late hopping and minimal (zero, in my case) bittering charge. I get a similar harsh bitterness (kind of an herbal/medicinal bitter quality) in many of my IPA's, and quite a few commercial examples as well. Most of my IPA experimentation in recent years has been to try to get rid of this character while maintaining the intense hop flavor that I love in my IPA's.

Here's some of what I've found:

- I notice this starting at about 1.5-2 ounces of hops per gallon, and it gets more noticible at higher hopping rates
- Polyclar and gallotannin gave both failed to reduce this character
- I have gotten this from whirlpool-only beers (i.e., no dry hops or bittering charge). That's not to say that it can't come from dry hops, but it definitely can come from whirlpool hops
- Pellet hops and cryo hops both give this type of bitterness at high hopping rates
- I do not get this character when a significant portion of my hops are whole cone

I still have some further testing to confirm, but my current working hypotheses are:

- Chopped up vegetative material in pellet hops has a greater surface area for releasing whatever is causing this flavor.
- Heat may increase the extraction of this character. A good test would be having a moderate bittering charge and a massive dry hop addition only, with no late-boil hops.
- Leaf hops may help pull/keep this out of the finished beer when used in conjunction with pellet hops. I'm not quite sold on this yet, but the couple of times I've used both types together I've had the best results in my IPA's.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 10:41:40 AM »
Thanks for the information. I thought it might be related to the hops I threw in with 2 minutes remaining in the boil. I do that addition there to get about 10 calculated IBUs so I can lower my bittering charge a bit though I don’t know how much sense that really makes. Just kind of started doing and stuck with it. Hopstand is probably the way to go but I haven’t had good results with my system.

Any information about hops added at high krausen? It was my first time doing that too.

At the end of the day I know my hopping rates are not high which is why I thought it may have something to do with water or another ingredient.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 10:49:46 AM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting:
Up Next: Red Rye Ale, Black Lager

Offline denny

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 10:53:45 AM »
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline erockrph

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2017, 11:29:29 AM »
Take a look at this...http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

I've brewed very hazy IPA's using DME as my only fermentable, so this certainly jives with my experience.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 08:21:23 AM »
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 08:26:24 AM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting:
Up Next: Red Rye Ale, Black Lager

Offline denny

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2017, 10:47:33 AM »
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

I haven't had a lot of NEIPAs (maybe 15 different commercial examples, including 8 from Treehouse) have all had some amount of astringency.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2017, 11:01:54 AM »
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

I haven't had a lot of NEIPAs (maybe 15 different commercial examples, including 8 from Treehouse) have all had some amount of astringency.

Interesting and good to know. One of the local examples around here is almost undrinkable because of astringency to me but everyone else seems to love it. I thought the goal of the substyle was to avoid this characteristic? Maybe goals are related to lower bitterness NOT astringency...
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 11:10:19 AM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting:
Up Next: Red Rye Ale, Black Lager

Offline denny

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 12:00:00 PM »
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

I haven't had a lot of NEIPAs (maybe 15 different commercial examples, including 8 from Treehouse) have all had some amount of astringency.

Interesting and good to know. One of the local examples around here is almost undrinkable because of astringency to me but everyone else seems to love it. I thought the goal of the substyle was to avoid this characteristic? Maybe goals are related to lower bitterness NOT astringency...

That's my understanding.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline zwiller

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 09:29:41 AM »
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 09:37:39 AM »
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.



I considered posting on it, but the PVPP might make a NEIPA  look clearer, ie., like a 'boring' ole AIPA.
Jon H.