Author Topic: medicinal bite - astringency?  (Read 2221 times)

Offline brewinhard

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2017, 09:41:36 AM »
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.

Erock mentioned that the use of polyclar did nothing to help reduce this issue above....

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2017, 09:43:48 AM »
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.

Erock mentioned that the use of polyclar did nothing to help reduce this issue above....


Missed that part. Busy work days + reading posts quickly = operator error sometimes.
Jon H.

Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 10:13:13 AM »
Going into keg tonight. Will post an update soon.

The goal of this beer was mainly to do a couple things I haven't tried before. It is missing some fundamental things that would make it a proper NEIPA.
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

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Offline stpug

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 10:18:28 AM »
My experience with hop astringency is the small hop particles in suspension.  Once those settle, the astringency goes away.  However you attack this problem to get those particles settled (in a non-abusive way) is the correct method.  It's easy enough to test on your own: bottle a couple beers, give them 2-7 days cold aging to settle, pour carefully into glass, and compare side-by-side with a fresh pull on your keg.  The downside to the test is that the bottle loses some of the hop goodness to oxidation but for a simple astringency/medicinal test then it should suffice.

Offline zwiller

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2017, 10:26:27 AM »
TOUCHE.  Sorry, I stand corrected! 

That said, I strongly disagree.  Polyclar most definitely removes harshness.  That said, polyclar is not gonna help a beer that gets dry hopped with a nasty hop and I am definitely not into simcoe.  I think you gotta be light handed on the high coho stuff there.  I once did a split DH: 50/50 cascade/cent and 50/50 chinook/nelson; .5oz each per 2.5G.  The cascade/cent was the best IPA I ever made and chinook/NV was a dumper...  Even after a few weeks it was bad.  Blew my mind.     

Upon further review.  You want mash pH and boil pH lower at 5.2 for NEIPA this helps reduce astringency a bit too. 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2017, 10:27:13 AM »
My experience with hop astringency is the small hop particles in suspension.  Once those settle, the astringency goes away.  However you attack this problem to get those particles settled (in a non-abusive way) is the correct method.  It's easy enough to test on your own: bottle a couple beers, give them 2-7 days cold aging to settle, pour carefully into glass, and compare side-by-side with a fresh pull on your keg.  The downside to the test is that the bottle loses some of the hop goodness to oxidation but for a simple astringency/medicinal test then it should suffice.

This is kind of what I was looking for. The sample I pulled was only a few days after the second hop addition. There was still likely a lot of hop matter in suspension though I didn't note it. This is a problem that might resolve itself.
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

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Offline erockrph

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Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2017, 07:45:49 AM »
The character I'm referring to is a harsh, vegetal bitterness more than astringency. It may be that Polyclar helps diminish this (I haven't done a side-by-side to compare relative amounts of this character), but it certainly doesn't eliminate it in my experience.

The fine hop particle idea jives with my experience that whole cone hops don't cause this issue. My only issue with this is that in my experience this harsh bitterness never fully goes away. You would think that particles in suspension would drop out completely if given enough time.
Eric B.

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Offline zwiller

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Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2017, 01:07:44 PM »
Now it sounds to me like it's a hop that you don't like.  I see tons of guys and recipes using hops that I hate and would never use.  These hops have what I say is a "course bitterness" as opposed to say a hop like magnum that has a "fine bitterness".  IE OP is using nugget and also simcoe.  Not in my beers!  Same as columbus and  chinook.  Citra is a bit course for me too. 
Sam
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Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2017, 01:17:13 PM »
Sorry about my hop choices. Some people like simcoe...

I normally use Magnum for bittering but not in hoppier beers beers where I admittedly want a little more bite
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 01:18:49 PM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2017, 02:54:46 PM »
The character I'm referring to is a harsh, vegetal bitterness more than astringency. It may be that Polyclar helps diminish this (I haven't done a side-by-side to compare relative amounts of this character), but it certainly doesn't eliminate it in my experience.

The fine hop particle idea jives with my experience that whole cone hops don't cause this issue. My only issue with this is that in my experience this harsh bitterness never fully goes away. You would think that particles in suspension would drop out completely if given enough time.


This is something I have run into in the past with keg hopping - not so much medicinal astringency per se as noticing very fine hop particles that made their way through a strainer bag, giving the beer the vegetal, harsh character you mention. I don't blame the strainer bag solely, more the bag sinking down near the dip tube and the suction created through the dip tube pulling those particles from the bag.

The solution for keg hoppers IMO is using the Clear Beer Draft System, which allows you to pull the dip tube, weight the hop bag to the bottom, and draw beer from the top of the keg well away from the bag. Not to mention the beer at the top of the keg is always clearer than the beer on the bottom (barring hazy or deliberately hazed styles). Regardless, I'm noticing a huge dropoff in harsh particulate and getting clearer beer quicker, with no more gelatin.

Combining this draft system with keg hops (on the bottom) and spunding to purge the keg completely during the dry hop period has solved the dry hopping conundrum for me. $0.02  .

http://www.clearbeerdraughtsystem.com/
Jon H.

Offline zwiller

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Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2017, 08:28:47 AM »
Sorry about my hop choices. Some people like simcoe...

I normally use Magnum for bittering but not in hoppier beers beers where I admittedly want a little more bite

No need to apologize, it's your beer  ;D  That said, I think brewers should stay away from adding bite to the NEIPA.  You want the opposite.  Smoother is better here.   I only had HT but that thing drinks like a lager...  Back in the day when I experimented with WP I made a IPA with pH of 5.2 and only hops (1lb) were WP for 30m.  Extremely close to the NEIPA.  If I was doing one (I don't care for the style) Mash 5.2, 1lb hops (easy on the dank stuff) low temp stand WP only, PVPP 10 to KO, pass on the DH, and use conan or other fruity yeast and spund.
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline goschman

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Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2017, 09:07:24 AM »
The astringency (or what I was perceiving as astringency) has largely subsided so it does seem to be related to hop matter in suspension. Just another example of my lack of patience...

The beer itself turned out very different but very good compared to my normal 'hoppy' beers. I am surprised with how close to a NEIPA it is considering the yeast and hop choices. I would never guess that Simcoe or Amarillo are in this beer. Overall a very good learning experience which I will be able to apply to future batches.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 09:08:59 AM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Hazy IPA, BraunBier, Berry Belgian Cider, Pilsner, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting:
Up Next: Red Rye Ale, Black Lager