Author Topic: 2 staggered yeast pitches  (Read 1740 times)

Offline goschman

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2 staggered yeast pitches
« on: October 26, 2017, 07:37:13 AM »
My goal is to ultimately have a pretty neutral yeast character with just a touch of complexity from a secondary yeast.

My thought is to use a neutral yeast and once fermentation is complete possibly add some more fermentables then pitch a second more expressive yeast to get some character out of it but not so that it dominates.

What is the best way to go about this?

For this example, I would likely be using US-05 and WLP705 (sake).


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Offline 802Chris

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 08:57:14 AM »
have you thought of doing a blend? It seems to me it would be more predictable and repeatable. Say, make a 5 gallon batch and pitch US-05 into 4 gallons and a gallon with a yeast of your choice and then blend?

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 09:09:09 AM »
have you thought of doing a blend? It seems to me it would be more predictable and repeatable. Say, make a 5 gallon batch and pitch US-05 into 4 gallons and a gallon with a yeast of your choice and then blend?

That's how I'd approach it.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 09:43:22 AM »
Or you could try pitching different amounts of each strain. For example, make a 2 qt starter of neutral strain and only a 1 qt starter (or less) of your "flavoring" strain.

Offline goschman

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 10:04:22 AM »
All great ideas. Thanks.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 08:23:02 AM »
I'd either copitch or pitch the expressive yeast first. If you pitch it later, then you may get very little character out of the expressive yeast because it isn't growing, it may be less active, and some of the substrates that it uses to produce flavor compounds may have already been used up by the primary yeast.

For example, WL Sacch Trois (the formerly incorrectly-labeled Brett Trois), does absolutely nothing when added as a secondary yeast. Also, I have used a couple of English ale strains as a copitch with US-05. None of those beers have had any esters that I normally associate with those strains when used alone. Some of that may be from overpitching, but I think some of that is also from the possible causes I mentioned above.
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Offline goschman

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 09:26:21 PM »
I'd either copitch or pitch the expressive yeast first. If you pitch it later, then you may get very little character out of the expressive yeast because it isn't growing, it may be less active, and some of the substrates that it uses to produce flavor compounds may have already been used up by the primary yeast.

For example, WL Sacch Trois (the formerly incorrectly-labeled Brett Trois), does absolutely nothing when added as a secondary yeast. Also, I have used a couple of English ale strains as a copitch with US-05. None of those beers have had any esters that I normally associate with those strains when used alone. Some of that may be from overpitching, but I think some of that is also from the possible causes I mentioned above.

So the logic would be to copitch? If the fear that a second yeast pitch will not be expressed why would I want to go with a neautral yeast second?
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Offline a10t2

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 11:04:26 PM »
I would agree that co-pitching, and keeping repitching to 2-3 generations, is the most stable way to approach this.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2017, 04:10:19 PM »
Sake yeast is a lager yeast so copitch is possibly problematic.  I would go with separate fermentations if you want to do a lager fermentation with the sake yeast.  I've only brewed sake with Wyeast sake yeast, not the White Lab one you are considering so YMMV. 

I am very interested in how goschman's beer turns out.  In the spring, I intend to do a 1-gallon ferment using sake lees for giggles.

Offline erockrph

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 07:38:25 PM »
I'd either copitch or pitch the expressive yeast first. If you pitch it later, then you may get very little character out of the expressive yeast because it isn't growing, it may be less active, and some of the substrates that it uses to produce flavor compounds may have already been used up by the primary yeast.

For example, WL Sacch Trois (the formerly incorrectly-labeled Brett Trois), does absolutely nothing when added as a secondary yeast. Also, I have used a couple of English ale strains as a copitch with US-05. None of those beers have had any esters that I normally associate with those strains when used alone. Some of that may be from overpitching, but I think some of that is also from the possible causes I mentioned above.

So the logic would be to copitch? If the fear that a second yeast pitch will not be expressed why would I want to go with a neautral yeast second?
There's no way to know for sure for a particular combo unless you try it, unfortunately. A copitch is probably the best place to start. Otherwise, if you're dead-set on nailing it the first time around, then a blend is the only way to go.
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Offline goschman

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2017, 09:00:53 PM »
I'd either copitch or pitch the expressive yeast first. If you pitch it later, then you may get very little character out of the expressive yeast because it isn't growing, it may be less active, and some of the substrates that it uses to produce flavor compounds may have already been used up by the primary yeast.

For example, WL Sacch Trois (the formerly incorrectly-labeled Brett Trois), does absolutely nothing when added as a secondary yeast. Also, I have used a couple of English ale strains as a copitch with US-05. None of those beers have had any esters that I normally associate with those strains when used alone. Some of that may be from overpitching, but I think some of that is also from the possible causes I mentioned above.

So the logic would be to copitch? If the fear that a second yeast pitch will not be expressed why would I want to go with a neautral yeast second?
There's no way to know for sure for a particular combo unless you try it, unfortunately. A copitch is probably the best place to start. Otherwise, if you're dead-set on nailing it the first time around, then a blend is the only way to go.

I rarely nail a beer on the first attempt so I am not too worried about it. I have used the yeast on its own but it was so long ago that I don’t really remember it and my tastes for what is good has changed considerably.
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Offline senseichaz

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 07:44:54 AM »
I'd either copitch or pitch the expressive yeast first. If you pitch it later, then you may get very little character out of the expressive yeast because it isn't growing, it may be less active, and some of the substrates that it uses to produce flavor compounds may have already been used up by the primary yeast.

For example, WL Sacch Trois (the formerly incorrectly-labeled Brett Trois), does absolutely nothing when added as a secondary yeast. Also, I have used a couple of English ale strains as a copitch with US-05. None of those beers have had any esters that I normally associate with those strains when used alone. Some of that may be from overpitching, but I think some of that is also from the possible causes I mentioned above.

So the logic would be to copitch? If the fear that a second yeast pitch will not be expressed why would I want to go with a neautral yeast second?
There's no way to know for sure for a particular combo unless you try it, unfortunately. A copitch is probably the best place to start. Otherwise, if you're dead-set on nailing it the first time around, then a blend is the only way to go.

I rarely nail a beer on the first attempt so I am not too worried about it. I have used the yeast on its own but it was so long ago that I don’t really remember it and my tastes for what is good has changed considerably.

My take would be to partigyle the initial batch. Perhaps 50-50 the first time around. Then blend. If you are getting more character from your second yeast, maybe do it 60-40 or 70-30 in subsequent batches.

Rational would be that each strain of yeast would get a fresh batch of wort, with all the stuff it needs to do its job. Neither would be able to gobble up something the other yeast might make as an intermediary product that would wind up as one of its final characteristics. Both would be able to shine on their own.


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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: 2 staggered yeast pitches
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2017, 10:01:56 AM »
You can always choose to blend at serving.  I have a split cider batch going this route (backsweetening one of the batches and leaving the other very dry).  I will be kegging each and blending to taste at the tap when serving.  Some may want a straight glass from just one keg, but it will offer the best of both worlds in an infinite level of diversity.

However, when I blend my annual Solera of Flanders Red, I meticulously blend in a single glass until I get the right amount of each of the two or three base batches used then scale up to a keg.
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