Author Topic: Mash ph and mouth feel  (Read 1121 times)

Offline banjo-guy

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Mash ph and mouth feel
« on: November 20, 2017, 12:09:16 PM »
Is there any correlation between mash ph and mouthfeel?  I thought I read a post from Martin about shooting for higher than 5.2 ph for certain styles of beers. I’m specifically referring to stouts and other dark beers, I can’t locate the post but I thought Martin and other brewers mentioned mashing at 5.5 and higher was desirable for some styles.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 03:01:23 PM by banjo-guy »

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 12:47:44 PM »
I haven't noticed differences in mouthfeel when mashing pH is above 5.2, but I've found that beer perception tends to be 'thin' if mashing pH is allowed to be less than 5.2. I'm guessing that the low pH is enhancing the degradation of body forming proteins and beta-glucans, but I'm not really sure of the mechanism or process.
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Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 12:48:30 PM »
Yes, on the Grain Bill Input page of Bru'nwater, it says 5.4 - 5.6 for darker beers.
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Offline banjo-guy

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 07:13:30 PM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm working on my oatmeal stout recipe.

Offline Robert

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2017, 12:01:20 AM »
I haven't noticed differences in mouthfeel when mashing pH is above 5.2, but I've found that beer perception tends to be 'thin' if mashing pH is allowed to be less than 5.2. I'm guessing that the low pH is enhancing the degradation of body forming proteins and beta-glucans, but I'm not really sure of the mechanism or process.

I believe I notice the difference even just between the ends of the 5.2 to 5.5 range (outside of which I will not stray!) and I perceive it to be similar at the low end to adding or overdoing a low temperature rest, so I agree with you on the cause.  I'm sure I've read plenty on the possible mechanisms but can't pin it down now (bookshelf too far from couch. )  I take it as a rule of thumb that both lower temp and pH favor protein cleavage, but I also perceive a difference in malt flavor-- can't explain that.
Rob Stein
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Offline deadpoetic0077

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 06:00:09 PM »
When I was putting in my water additions into brunwater for my recent stout, I had to adjust a lot to bring the PH up.

I barely got it to 5.2, and I didnt want to add a ton of baking soda and increase the sodium levels too high while trying to get it to 5.4.

Lets say that my stout ends up tasting "thin". Is there anything I can add to the keg to help that?

Offline Robert

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 06:15:33 PM »
I don't know about the keg, but next time increase alkalinity not with baking soda -- you're right about avoiding that -- but calcium hydroxide, sold as pickling lime.  The calculations aren't straightforward cause the hydroxide part brings alkalinity up but at the same time the calcium is reducing RESIDUAL alkalinity.  But there's good guidance on the net effect in John Palmer & Colin Kaminsky's book on water.  It's a strategy for dark beers that should have no effect on "mineral" flavor, and in tests I've done adding it to deionized water the food grade picking lime works just as they suggest pure Ca(OH)2 should.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 06:17:21 PM by Robert »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 06:49:41 PM »
I raise pH with baking soda regularly. Provided you use RO or distilled water, even a roasty stout ends up @ around 50ppm Na or less - which Martin says is perfectly fine. I've medaled on stouts a few times, so I guess it works ok.   :)
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Offline deadpoetic0077

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 07:12:05 PM »
I raise pH with baking soda regularly. Provided you use RO or distilled water, even a roasty stout ends up @ around 50ppm Na or less - which Martin says is perfectly fine. I've medaled on stouts a few times, so I guess it works ok.   :)
That's where mine ended up. I use distilled (RO) and got Roughly 50ppm sodium using baking soda IIRC. for some reason though it was just not getting up to the 5.4 range. maybe my water volumes?? idk. I lowered the amount of water I used in my mash and increased my sparge and that ended up helping a bit I think but I don't know how that messed with other things like mash thickness. I have literally never paid attention to that since I usually do BIAB and then dunk sparge.


Offline mabrungard

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 07:39:13 PM »
Assuming that you are using roughly equal volumes of mashing and sparging water for a batch, adding baking soda to low alkalinity water such as RO or distilled to keep mashing pH up in a good range will not add that much sodium. While you might add something like 100 ppm sodium to the mashing water via baking soda, that content will be diluted roughly in half when the sparging water (which doesn't have baking soda) is added. The free version of Bru'n Water doesn't account for that dilution, but the supporter's version does.

Sodium is definitely not a problem in brewing water when making most dark styles. It improves flavor!!
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Online dmtaylor

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2017, 01:51:25 PM »
Reserve some of your dark roasted malts for the end of the mash if you are not reaching your mash pH goal.  Maybe half at beginning and half in the last 10 minutes, something like that.
Dave

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Offline deadpoetic0077

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Re: Mash ph and mouth feel
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2017, 07:02:41 PM »
Reserve some of your dark roasted malts for the end of the mash if you are not reaching your mash pH goal.  Maybe half at beginning and half in the last 10 minutes, something like that.

.... duh.... now why didn't I think of that... lol thanks!