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Author Topic: Down sides of no mashout?  (Read 4155 times)

Offline soymateofeo

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2017, 11:34:53 pm »
Mash out or don't mash out. It makes no difference.  You may notice a drop in efficiency but if you plan for the efficiency that you get, then it shouldn't matter.  Don't confuse efficiency with quality.  You can get a great beer with a 55% efficiency and absolute crap with 80% efficiency.  If the beer you make is great with no mash out, then don't mash out.  I used to mash out when I had a cooler mash tun with no recirc.  The results weren't worth the effort.   Now I have a keggle mash tun with a herms set up. My mash outs now have a significant impact in efficiency. I'd have to ask my friends if my beer quality is for s--t.  I've also made some great no sparge batches with like 60% efficiency but the beers were off the chain.  I'd focus on something more important like what music you were listening to when you were mashing.  I'd like to suggest you listen to either Tribe Called Quest, Led Zepellin IV, or Ras Michael and the Sons of Negus.

Big Monk

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2017, 06:38:11 am »
I think that one of the important things to remember (and possibly to differentiate between) here is how we are all using the term mashout.

a.) Some use the term to describe the extremely brief period they raise the mash temperature prior to lautering. Here most people are not holding that temperature for any longer than it takes to stir and runoff. This method isn't really a rest temperature. In fact, it's doubtful that a uniform temperature across the whole mash is reached given the extremely brief duration.

b.) For those of use who step mash, we are not only raising the temperature from our alpha rest temperature (72C) to our mashout rest temperature (76-77C), we are also holding this temperature for at least 10 minutes. That means we ramp from 72-77C (4-5 minutes), rest at 76-77C (10 minutes), and then the mash sits for a few extra minutes as we prepare to runoff (1-2 minutes). That's quite different and it means we sit in a temperature range known for producing foam positive Glycoprotiens for something on the order of 15 minutes. Not only that, but if you are recirculating, it gives the mash temperature enough time to equalize across the whole volume and you get some additional extract in solution.

So it pays to be clear about how we are all using the term. As always, YMMV.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 06:40:59 am by Big Monk »

Offline Robert

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2017, 06:56:50 am »
Slightly irrelevant and off topic, but I'm curious about terminology.   I see most here using "mash out" for what I always thought was "mash off."  Full set of terms I learned:   mash in = same as dough in, mash off = 170°F rest, mash down = transfer to lauter tun, mash out = same as grains out. Am I non-standard nowadays?
Rob Stein
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Big Monk

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2017, 07:17:27 am »
Slightly irrelevant and off topic, but I'm curious about terminology.   I see most here using "mash out" for what I always thought was "mash off."  Full set of terms I learned:   mash in = same as dough in, mash off = 170°F rest, mash down = transfer to lauter tun, mash out = same as grains out. Am I non-standard nowadays?

I'm thinking of Mash OFF, i.e. holding a 170F rest.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2017, 10:43:07 am »
Slightly irrelevant and off topic, but I'm curious about terminology.   I see most here using "mash out" for what I always thought was "mash off."  Full set of terms I learned:   mash in = same as dough in, mash off = 170°F rest, mash down = transfer to lauter tun, mash out = same as grains out. Am I non-standard nowadays?

I'm thinking of Mash OFF, i.e. holding a 170F rest.

So after step mashing for intervals of say, 30 minutes at each of two selected mash temps, you increase to and hold at 76-77C (or at 170F) for another 10 minutes during a recirculation mash, right?  (i.e., a 70 minute mash routine in total, plus ramp times)?
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Offline Robert

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2017, 11:18:55 am »
Slightly irrelevant and off topic, but I'm curious about terminology.   I see most here using "mash out" for what I always thought was "mash off."  Full set of terms I learned:   mash in = same as dough in, mash off = 170°F rest, mash down = transfer to lauter tun, mash out = same as grains out. Am I non-standard nowadays?

I'm thinking of Mash OFF, i.e. holding a 170F rest.

So after step mashing for intervals of say, 30 minutes at each of two selected mash temps, you increase to and hold at 76-77C (or at 170F) for another 10 minutes during a recirculation mash, right?  (i.e., a 70 minute mash routine in total, plus ramp times)?
I know Big Monk is a bit more elaborate, but my schedule is 20 minutes at 146°F,  30 minutes at 162°F, 10 minutes at 170°F, ramping as quickly as possible, so just about 75 minutes total or a bit more. (Note I don't recirc, just plain old flame and stir.)
Rob Stein
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Big Monk

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 11:44:54 am »
Slightly irrelevant and off topic, but I'm curious about terminology.   I see most here using "mash out" for what I always thought was "mash off."  Full set of terms I learned:   mash in = same as dough in, mash off = 170°F rest, mash down = transfer to lauter tun, mash out = same as grains out. Am I non-standard nowadays?

I'm thinking of Mash OFF, i.e. holding a 170F rest.

So after step mashing for intervals of say, 30 minutes at each of two selected mash temps, you increase to and hold at 76-77C (or at 170F) for another 10 minutes during a recirculation mash, right?  (i.e., a 70 minute mash routine in total, plus ramp times)?

At present it would either be the Brauwelt High Gelatinization (HG) mash, with 1C/min ramps:

Beta 1: 62C (~144F)(20 min)
Beta 2: 64C (~147F)(Rest: 20 min)(Ramp: 2 min)
Beta 3: 67C (~153F)(Rest: 20 min)(Ramp: 3 min)
Alpha: 72C (~162F)(Rest: 30 min)(Ramp: 10 min)
Mashoff: 76-77C (~169-171F)(Rest: 10 min)(Ramp: 4-5 min)

Total time: 120 minutes

OR the standard Hochkurz, with 1C/min ramps:

Beta: 63C (~145F)(Rest: 30 min)
Alpha: 72C (~162F)(Rest: 30 min)(Ramp: 9 min)
Mashoff: 76-77C (~169-171F)(Rest: 10 min)(Ramp: 4-5 min)

Total time: 84 minutes

BUT The Beerery just did an experiment over the weekend by using the chart from the same article that the HG mash came from to establish the duration of beta activity at various temperatures and the modified version of the Brauwelt HG mash became:

Beta 1: 62C (~144F)(18 min)
Beta 2: 64C (~147F)(Rest: 9 min)(Ramp: 2 min)
Beta 3: 67C (~153F)(Rest: 5 min)(Ramp: 3 min)
Alpha: 72C (~162F)(Rest: 30 min)(Ramp: 10 min)
Mashoff: 76-77C (~169-171F)(Rest: 10 min)(Ramp: 4-5 min)

Total time: 92 minutes

The reason this is so interesting is that he was trying to establish whether he could still get the expected 100% conversion efficiency he gets with the standard Brauwelt HG mash with the reduced times and, of course it's only a single data point, the numbers were what they usually are: full conversion and gravity right on the nose.

This means that people may be able to perform the abridged (timewise) version of the Brauwelt HG mash in only 8 minutes more time than the standard Hochkurz.

I realize we've strayed a bit off topic but felt compelled to get that out there.

Offline Robert

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2017, 11:52:21 am »
My really simple mash converts completely as indicated by iodine test and easily gives a yield of 72% (around 94% efficiency.)  If that's good enough for you.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 12:19:43 pm by Robert »
Rob Stein
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Big Monk

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2017, 12:25:37 pm »
My really simple mash converts completely as indicated by iodine test and easily gives a yield of 72% (around 94% efficiency.)  If that's good enough for you.

When you says 94% efficiency, you mean conversion efficiency?

Offline Robert

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Re: Down sides of no mashout?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2017, 12:29:32 pm »
I mean brewhouse efficiency, yield/CGAI.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.