Author Topic: American light lager  (Read 1881 times)

Offline denny

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2017, 07:19:01 PM »
Since I think modern six-row bears little resemblance to the old stuff

I'm curious about how you reached this conclusion.
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Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2017, 07:42:56 PM »
Since I think modern six-row bears little resemblance to the old stuff

I'm curious about how you reached this conclusion.

I think a big hint is right in the Wahl-Henius Handybook, the analyses showing American six-rows with protein levels in the 9%-11% range.  That shows they must have differed from the end product of a century of breeding.  And I'd be shocked if protein was all that had changed.  Flavor hasn't been top priority for breeders, agronomic qualities have.  So as long as I'm not doing an archaeology project, I just use the best malt I can.  I know there ARE micro-maltsters using heirloom barley, but I haven't had access. 
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2017, 07:57:05 PM »
Side note: I love how the craft beer side views adjuncts unfavorably, yet British styles were a major part of what started it all.

It's the perfect irony, as the Brits put adjuncts in everything.

But don't mind me, I'll just be sitting in the corning nursing a Yuengling. Cheers!
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline denny

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2017, 08:18:27 PM »
Since I think modern six-row bears little resemblance to the old stuff

I'm curious about how you reached this conclusion.

I think a big hint is right in the Wahl-Henius Handybook, the analyses showing American six-rows with protein levels in the 9%-11% range.  That shows they must have differed from the end product of a century of breeding.  And I'd be shocked if protein was all that had changed.  Flavor hasn't been top priority for breeders, agronomic qualities have.  So as long as I'm not doing an archaeology project, I just use the best malt I can.  I know there ARE micro-maltsters using heirloom barley, but I haven't had access.

Thanks for the explanation.  I don't deny that there very well could be flavor differences, but I guess I'm not as certain about it as you are.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2017, 08:20:37 PM »
Side note: I love how the craft beer side views adjuncts unfavorably, yet British styles were a major part of what started it all.

It's the perfect irony, as the Brits put adjuncts in everything.

But don't mind me, I'll just be sitting in the corning nursing a Yuengling. Cheers!
Nothing wrong with that! Which Yuengling BTW ? We get the "crafty" ones in OH now, but I'd love to get my hands on a Premium Beer.   Been 30 years, maybe.  You know, just for scientific purposes of course ;).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 08:37:08 PM by Robert »
Rob Stein
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Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2017, 08:28:01 PM »
Since I think modern six-row bears little resemblance to the old stuff

I'm curious about how you reached this conclusion.

I think a big hint is right in the Wahl-Henius Handybook, the analyses showing American six-rows with protein levels in the 9%-11% range.  That shows they must have differed from the end product of a century of breeding.  And I'd be shocked if protein was all that had changed.  Flavor hasn't been top priority for breeders, agronomic qualities have.  So as long as I'm not doing an archaeology project, I just use the best malt I can.  I know there ARE micro-maltsters using heirloom barley, but I haven't had access.

Thanks for the explanation.  I don't deny that there very well could be flavor differences, but I guess I'm not as certain about it as you are.

Oh, I'm not 100% certain, but highly suspicious!  I'd be very interested in trying some heirloom malts to see if they are really different.  Of course floor malting would have an impact too. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline denny

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2017, 08:36:18 PM »
Oh, I'm not 100% certain, but highly suspicious!  I'd be very interested in trying some heirloom malts to see if they are really different.  Of course floor malting would have an impact too.

Now you've done it...brought up something else I have questions about!  What is the difference floor malting makes and why?
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Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2017, 08:50:27 PM »
 
Oh, I'm not 100% certain, but highly suspicious!  I'd be very interested in trying some heirloom malts to see if they are really different.  Of course floor malting would have an impact too.

Now you've done it...brought up something else I have questions about!  What is the difference floor malting makes and why?
Okay,  I'm NOT the expert,  but whether or not the longer process makes a difference,  I can see that lacking constant air flow, temperatures could spike and more CO2 could be trapped in the piece.  That sounds to me just like what's done towards the end of germination to produce Brumalt/ honey malt/melanoidin malt (does it go by any other names?)  Makes you think, since floor malts are supposed to have a richer flavor.   Again, not an expert.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2017, 09:11:26 PM »
Floor malting is a marketing term.  Sure, the barley is malted traditionally on the floor and turned/shoveled by hand after each steep but that's it.

There is no other difference.  Modification is the same unless purposefully cut short.

Now if it said "Wood fire kilned" as opposed to an electronically controlled kiln profile then yes there would probably be a noticeable difference.

I haven't tested it but a triangle test would most certainly indicate that there is no discernable difference.  Maybe someone (Brulosophy, Experimental Brewing, etc...) can do an experiment on this.

Trying malting your own sometime and you'll see what I mean.

As far as adjuncts are concerned, I don't believe they're required to make a light lager, one can use all malt, proper mash temps and perhaps amylase enzyme.

Offline denny

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2017, 09:14:59 PM »
Floor malting is a marketing term.  Sure, the barley is malted traditionally on the floor and turned/shoveled by hand after each steep but that's it.

There is no other difference.  Modification is the same unless purposefully cut short.

Now if it said "Wood fire kilned" as opposed to an electronically controlled kiln profile then yes there would probably be a noticeable difference.

I haven't tested it but a triangle test would most certainly indicate that there is no discernable difference.  Maybe someone (Brulosophy, Experimental Brewing, etc...) can do an experiment on this.

Trying malting your own sometime and you'll see what I mean.

As far as adjuncts are concerned, I don't believe they're required to make a light lager, one can use all malt, proper mash temps and perhaps amylase enzyme.

Well, I've used quite a bit of Mecca Grade malts and they're mechanically floor malted  I doubt any maltster of any size uses human labor to turn them, but I could be wrong.  In the case of Mecca Grade I believe that more difference in flavor comes form the barley variety they use than the way they malt it.
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Offline denny

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2017, 09:16:30 PM »
Okay,  I'm NOT the expert,  but whether or not the longer process makes a difference,  I can see that lacking constant air flow, temperatures could spike and more CO2 could be trapped in the piece.  That sounds to me just like what's done towards the end of germination to produce Brumalt/ honey malt/melanoidin malt (does it go by any other names?)  Makes you think, since floor malts are supposed to have a richer flavor.   Again, not an expert.

Are you sure they lack constant air flow?  The one floor malting operation I've visited indicated that it was constant.  I'll try to double check on that.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2017, 09:23:28 PM »
Well, I've used quite a bit of Mecca Grade malts and they're mechanically floor malted  I doubt any maltster of any size uses human labor to turn them, but I could be wrong.  In the case of Mecca Grade I believe that more difference in flavor comes form the barley variety they use than the way they malt it.

IIRC Weyermann outsources and uses human labor to turn the malt.

https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2017/5/4/inside-a-czech-floor-maltings

Absolutely - barley variety, terrior, and obviously kiln method/profile are the flavor components.

Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2017, 09:29:48 PM »
Okay,  I'm NOT the expert,  but whether or not the longer process makes a difference,  I can see that lacking constant air flow, temperatures could spike and more CO2 could be trapped in the piece.  That sounds to me just like what's done towards the end of germination to produce Brumalt/ honey malt/melanoidin malt (does it go by any other names?)  Makes you think, since floor malts are supposed to have a richer flavor.   Again, not an expert.

Are you sure they lack constant air flow?  The one floor malting operation I've visited indicated that it was constant.  I'll try to double check on that.

Maybe you're thinking of air flow OVER the malt, but I was thinking that it's not constant up through the piece. Again, I  know I  know just enough to be dangerous, but always eager to learn. I'm also with you on the possibility that variety makes all the difference. The floor malts I've used are the Weyermann Bohemian Dark and Pilsner, but I have no pneumatic example to compare, of course.
Rob Stein
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Offline eelpout

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2017, 09:34:33 PM »
Hence why I feel that rice, rather than corn, is required for the style. Corn has a distinct (love it or hate it, sometimes) flavor, whereas rice just tastes like nothingness in beer. (Aside from Sake.)
I can't say I agree. I can never pick out the corn unless it's way over done,, but even a little rice is detectable.

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Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2017, 09:46:26 PM »
Okay,  I'm NOT the expert,  but whether or not the longer process makes a difference,  I can see that lacking constant air flow, temperatures could spike and more CO2 could be trapped in the piece.  That sounds to me just like what's done towards the end of germination to produce Brumalt/ honey malt/melanoidin malt (does it go by any other names?)  Makes you think, since floor malts are supposed to have a richer flavor.   Again, not an expert.

Temperatures are not allowed to spike and CO2 does not become trapped.  This is why the piece is manually turned at regular intervals after each steep.  Excess heat would simply contribute to uneven and excessive acrospire growth or at worse mold growth and rot.  The only thing during the steeping step that contributes to the flavor of the malt would be the final moisture content (affects kilning) and perhaps any steep water additives.