Author Topic: American light lager  (Read 1912 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2017, 10:17:44 PM »
Okay,  I'm NOT the expert,  but whether or not the longer process makes a difference,  I can see that lacking constant air flow, temperatures could spike and more CO2 could be trapped in the piece.  That sounds to me just like what's done towards the end of germination to produce Brumalt/ honey malt/melanoidin malt (does it go by any other names?)  Makes you think, since floor malts are supposed to have a richer flavor.   Again, not an expert.

Temperatures are not allowed to spike and CO2 does not become trapped.  This is why the piece is manually turned at regular intervals after each steep.  Excess heat would simply contribute to uneven and excessive acrospire growth or at worse mold growth and rot.  The only thing during the steeping step that contributes to the flavor of the malt would be the final moisture content (affects kilning) and perhaps any steep water additives.
Thanks for disabusing me of my mistaken assumption.  As I said,  always eager to learn.   So am I to assume that floor malting makes no difference, and variety really is everything?  And while you're educating me, why does the temperature and CO2 increase do no harm in Brumalt (etc.) production?  Just that it's a short time?  (I get my info on that process from an article by Herr Dr Prof Narziss in the Winter 1993 Zymurgy.)
Rob Stein
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Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2017, 10:30:23 PM »
I don't know that BruMalt is viably made in a floor malting process.  What does the article say?

Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2017, 10:49:35 PM »
I don't know that BruMalt is viably made in a floor malting process.  What does the article say?
The article is an overview of specialty malt production, and of course refers only to modern methods.  I expect you're right.  It indicates that the fan is switched off for the last 20 hours or so, and that as the temp. rises embryo growth is halted but enzymes continue to produce  low-molecular weight breakdown products which form aromatic substances at kilning (short version.) I just always wondered if something like this could happen on a limited scale in floor malting.  I gather not.  I guess I kept that issue all this time because it led me to such idle musings! (And it has useful sample grain bills for different styles.)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 11:09:49 PM by Robert »
Rob Stein
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Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2017, 11:40:51 PM »
Most if not all malts labeled as floor malted are base malts, though I suppose a marketing campaign could claim some specialty malts as "floor malted" (i.e. steeped/turned/germinated on a floor as opposed to an automated machine).

Articles claiming that floor malted malts are under-modified, more aromatic/flavorful etc... are questionable and mostly just repeating false information (i.e. researched on the internet...).

At any rate, I'd be surprised if experiments indicated a discernible difference.


Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2017, 09:08:42 PM »
I have been using Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner from before I knew it was Czech produced, but I didn’t know of any readily available Czech malts.  It seems to me that the hand crafting of Malts is becoming the new “thing”.

I will try others, but since I use Weyermann for most German styles, I will get the Floor Malted Pils to be able to also make Czech beers a little more authentically.

I must admit I haven’t tried the Barke Pils yet and I intend to get to that soon.

As to the American lagers, I enjoy making Pre-Pro lagers more than the adjunct laden lagers, but I appreciate how difficult the American lagers can be - nothing to hide behind.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2017, 02:47:02 AM »
Can you distinguish floor malted from regular?  I malt my own and can't distiguish unless I give the malt special steeping treatment and/or kilning.

Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2017, 02:50:27 AM »
Can you distinguish floor malted from regular?  I malt my own and can't distiguish unless I give the malt special steeping treatment and/or kilning.
Okay I've never malted my own, but if you do, how are you NOT essentially floor malting?  Do you have your own Saladin box or something?
Rob Stein
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Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2017, 10:33:57 PM »
Okay I've never malted my own, but if you do, how are you NOT essentially floor malting?  Do you have your own Saladin box or something?

That's exactly the point, the process is essentially the same as what is termed "floor malting" and produces no distinguishable difference from either floor malted or a normal malt (IMO).  Try malting your own and see what the marketing term "floor malting" really means.  If floor malting makes such a tremendous difference it would be touted by the breweries in the final products, and maybe it is, but such beers do not outsell beers made with regular malt.  I don't know that you'd find a brewer who says that floor malted malts are the key difference in their products.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 10:37:54 PM by BitterItDown »

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2017, 02:39:29 PM »
I’m not advocating for small maltsters as a craft thing, but I like Czech beers and like to think that I am getting closer to them at the homebrew level by using Czech made malts.  Just a part of the hobby, like using certain hop varieties fir bittering.  Maybe there’s no difference in the end, but you get to try it for yourself.
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Offline BitterItDown

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2017, 05:33:36 PM »
You are closer to Czech beers by using their malt, not because it's "floor malted", but because it uses the barley variety, terrior and steeping schedule and kilning profile that gives it what you've come to expect.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2017, 10:09:53 PM »
You are closer to Czech beers by using their malt, not because it's "floor malted", but because it uses the barley variety, terrior and steeping schedule and kilning profile that gives it what you've come to expect.

Good point.  So, as it is readily available - and I don't know where to get Czech malts otherwise, I will go with it when I can get it.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2017, 06:51:20 PM »
You are closer to Czech beers by using their malt, not because it's "floor malted", but because it uses the barley variety, terrior and steeping schedule and kilning profile that gives it what you've come to expect.

Weyermann has TWO Bohemian Pilsners, one floor malted,the other conventional.   I've used both and prefer the conventional. It's very consistent,  and IMO gives better body, mouthfeel and foam, and a less muddy flavor, than the floor malt. That said, my  choice is still the regular Weyermann Pilsner.
Rob Stein
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I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2017, 08:29:09 PM »
You are closer to Czech beers by using their malt, not because it's "floor malted", but because it uses the barley variety, terrior and steeping schedule and kilning profile that gives it what you've come to expect.

Weyermann has TWO Bohemian Pilsners, one floor malted,the other conventional.   I've used both and prefer the conventional. It's very consistent,  and IMO gives better body, mouthfeel and foam, and a less muddy flavor, than the floor malt. That said, my  choice is still the regular Weyermann Pilsner.

Your palate must be well refined, indeed, and I know mine is not so much, but I’d be interested in any side by side blind tasting results, if any have been done.  I just might put that on the agenda for 2018 - but I bet the results will be relatively inconclusive, as the pool of tasters in my group are not very refined.  Cheers!
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline Robert

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2017, 08:49:15 PM »
You are closer to Czech beers by using their malt, not because it's "floor malted", but because it uses the barley variety, terrior and steeping schedule and kilning profile that gives it what you've come to expect.

Weyermann has TWO Bohemian Pilsners, one floor malted,the other conventional.   I've used both and prefer the conventional. It's very consistent,  and IMO gives better body, mouthfeel and foam, and a less muddy flavor, than the floor malt. That said, my  choice is still the regular Weyermann Pilsner.

Your palate must be well refined, indeed, and I know mine is not so much, but I’d be interested in any side by side blind tasting results, if any have been done.  I just might put that on the agenda for 2018 - but I bet the results will be relatively inconclusive, as the pool of tasters in my group are not very refined.  Cheers!
Sorry, no side by side, just my recollection and notes of different batches over time. But as I've used all 3 of those malts and haven't, as a indicated, been overwhelmingly persuaded to sticknwith either of the Bohemian ones, the differences are probably subtle. Point is apparently there is no floor magic.  I hope you post results of your more disciplined comparisons.  And your pool will be bigger than my pool of me! 
Rob Stein
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: American light lager
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2017, 12:37:58 AM »
My thoughts on the original question. If you intend to win a BJCP contest, you need some corn flavor and aroma. If you want your version of an American Lager, then do what you think sounds tasty. I would go with all pils malt, a touch of carahell, Crystal hops and Wy2206. With Crystal, and being brewed right down town America, I'd say it qualifies for the label

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