Author Topic: Oxidation  (Read 1830 times)

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2017, 02:33:10 PM »
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.
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The Beerery

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2017, 02:39:27 PM »
22 PPB in a homebrew is absolutely amazing, I have to admit. We get about 40-60 in the BT after centrifuge. I've basically stopped centrifuging hoppy beers and can get under 20 in the BBT.

A lot of commercial breweries out there are very shocked at their DO levels once they pick up a DO meter.

Thanks!

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2017, 02:40:35 PM »
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.

Only active yeast consume oxygen.

So lets run though this to all get on the same page. I have to make some assumptions here so please correct me when I am wrong.

Ferment to gravity in the fermenter. Allow beer to clear maybe cold crash?

Beer sits in the primary 2 weeks. The off to the bottling bucket we go. Stir in priming source. Add to bottle. Use oxygen abosorbjng caps, but you sanitize them with tap water and sani saturated with 8-12ppm o2, there by sanitizing them but robbing them of all their scavenging potential.

Beer takes on oxygen from the transfer to the bottle bucket, and being put in the bottle.
The beer is capped. With oxygen in the wort and in the headspace. It, after 1hr due to ideal gas laws has all the o2 of the headspace into the beer. Days pass before the yeast wakes up and starts consuming all the while letting in an additional 7ppb per day. You are under protection during this (and only this) phase. The yeast wake up after a week consume what it can. Eat the food source and go dormant. Every day 7ppb is added, this never stops in the bottle. If using swing tops double it.

I don’t disagree that you get another layer of protection then say a force carbed and counter pressure filled bottle. But you( proverbial you, all bottlers including any and ALL professionals) are fighting a winless battle.

The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2017, 05:08:17 PM »
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.

Only active yeast consume oxygen.

So lets run though this to all get on the same page. I have to make some assumptions here so please correct me when I am wrong.

Ferment to gravity in the fermenter. Allow beer to clear maybe cold crash?

Beer sits in the primary 2 weeks. The off to the bottling bucket we go. Stir in priming source. Add to bottle. Use oxygen abosorbjng caps, but you sanitize them with tap water and sani saturated with 8-12ppm o2, there by sanitizing them but robbing them of all their scavenging potential.

Beer takes on oxygen from the transfer to the bottle bucket, and being put in the bottle.
The beer is capped. With oxygen in the wort and in the headspace. It, after 1hr due to ideal gas laws has all the o2 of the headspace into the beer. Days pass before the yeast wakes up and starts consuming all the while letting in an additional 7ppb per day. You are under protection during this (and only this) phase. The yeast wake up after a week consume what it can. Eat the food source and go dormant. Every day 7ppb is added, this never stops in the bottle. If using swing tops double it.

I don’t disagree that you get another layer of protection then say a force carbed and counter pressure filled bottle. But you( proverbial you, all bottlers including any and ALL professionals) are fighting a winless battle.

The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

For sure it is not that easy.  Your set up is very impressive.  I am considering the lactic reactor/sauergut route, but I have to get more disciplined on the hot side, first.  I have a closed loop RIMS arrangement, with silicone-gasketed mash tun cover, so I have made some strides on limiting O2 ingress (and I use only about a gram of NaMeta on my 10 gallon batches, along with BTB and CaCl2).  Baby steps....
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Offline Lazy Ant Brewing

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2017, 12:11:38 PM »
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.

Only active yeast consume oxygen.

So lets run though this to all get on the same page. I have to make some assumptions here so please correct me when I am wrong.

Ferment to gravity in the fermenter. Allow beer to clear maybe cold crash?

Beer sits in the primary 2 weeks. The off to the bottling bucket we go. Stir in priming source. Add to bottle. Use oxygen abosorbjng caps, but you sanitize them with tap water and sani saturated with 8-12ppm o2, there by sanitizing them but robbing them of all their scavenging potential.

Beer takes on oxygen from the transfer to the bottle bucket, and being put in the bottle.
The beer is capped. With oxygen in the wort and in the headspace. It, after 1hr due to ideal gas laws has all the o2 of the headspace into the beer. Days pass before the yeast wakes up and starts consuming all the while letting in an additional 7ppb per day. You are under protection during this (and only this) phase. The yeast wake up after a week consume what it can. Eat the food source and go dormant. Every day 7ppb is added, this never stops in the bottle. If using swing tops double it.

I don’t disagree that you get another layer of protection then say a force carbed and counter pressure filled bottle. But you( proverbial you, all bottlers including any and ALL professionals) are fighting a winless battle.

The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

You mention that 7 ppb/day accumulates in the bottled beer.  My question is what is the threshold i.e. how many ppb, where most people would detect oxidation?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
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The Beerery

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2017, 02:55:39 PM »
Industry standards for accelerated staling is 150ppb (.15ppm). So 150/7 is 21ish days, that’s just taking into account bottle cap ingress and not all the other stuff.  Now will the beer taste worse or different after 3 weeks?  I have no idea.  I can tell a difference  from a can (at 22ppb) and a fresh pour of the tap(10ppb) in a triple blind so the thresholds can be small.  The canned beer isn’t bad, but it’s got subtle differences (for me that it’s slightly sweeter) that I can pick up on.  With that being said without the beers side by side it could possibly be harder to pick up. 


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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2017, 03:32:53 PM »
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2017, 03:43:30 PM »
I'm surprised no one mentioned it but to the OP's question... it's not just a beer that will age that would benefit from lower-O2.  It sounds like oxidation will IMMEDIATELY rob a beer of deep & pleasing malt profile that a brewer would rather keep.  I am not a low-O2 brewer but I have started to move in that direction... I condition my malt, use bakers yeast and sugar in my mash and sparge water (2 hours) to get O2 levels lower, I carefully transfer to the MT with hi-temp tubing, I use SMB and ascorbic acid in the mash (BTB too), use a mash cap, stir less, boil at a lower level, etc., purge kegs prior to transfer, etc. in an attempt to lower O2.  My process and my equipment are crude by all comparisons.  It may be something that I phase in over time but I'm moving in that direction to see what difference it makes.  I still have some stirring and splashing in my process so I keep examining and adjusting.  As many people have mentioned about low-O2... just try it for yourself and see if you notice a difference in your beers.  If so, keep at it.  If not, don't worry about it.   

The Beerery

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2017, 05:00:25 PM »
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.


I am not aware of a number but cans use a “2 fold seal” that is far superior than a crimp.    Everywhere I have seen say zero permeability for can seam ingress.





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Offline Andy Farke

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2017, 05:24:32 PM »
Would sealing the cap with wax be another way to reduce/prevent oxygen ingress into the bottle after capping? (or I suppose sealing the can seam with wax, if you can at home?)
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2017, 02:07:12 PM »
Would sealing the cap with wax be another way to reduce/prevent oxygen ingress into the bottle after capping? (or I suppose sealing the can seam with wax, if you can at home?)
Wax will permit less O2, how much is the question.
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2017, 04:16:19 PM »
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.


I am not aware of a number but cans use a “2 fold seal” that is far superior than a crimp.    Everywhere I have seen say zero permeability for can seam ingress.





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There is another thing that can lids/ends have caulk like sealer in the seam area. This caulk/sealer is double folded into the double seam to ensure 100% seal.


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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Oxidation
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2017, 12:00:36 AM »
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.


I am not aware of a number but cans use a “2 fold seal” that is far superior than a crimp.    Everywhere I have seen say zero permeability for can seam ingress.





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Thanks for posting that diagram. Had no idea that was how it works. Very cool.