[mabrungard]

DMS is allowed by the BJCP guidelines for many beer styles that employ high pils malt content. 'No DMS' is not necessarily a goal that all brews should embrace. In fact, at low levels, DMS adds a nuance that is desirable. Its the brewer's task to make sure that the DMS level is not excessive or inappropriate.

It is pils and green (air) malt that offer the most SMM and therefore the most DMS potential in brewing. Anytime your pils content is high, you need to be concerned with converting and ejecting excessive DMS from the wort. This becomes less of an issue with more highly kilned malts like pale and vienna malt and a non-issue with any malts greater than about 7L color rating. I'm betting that there are a bunch of brewers that needlessly worry about DMS and their grists don't have any pils content.   

[Robert]

One guy's got bird poop, another's got bees -- glad I'm an indoor brewer!

[JT]

Brad Smith had a nice discussion on boiling with Charlie Bamforth on the BeerSmith podcast a few years ago.  He is not a fan of lid on or weak boil.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/03/01/boiling-home-brewed-beer-with-dr-charlie-bamforth-beersmith-podcast-121/

Charlie Bamforth has changed his tune on many things in the interim. His newer book "Freshness" is a must read.

I remember the interview but didn't know about the book.  Thanks!

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

[Phil_M]

DMS is allowed by the BJCP guidelines for many beer styles that employ high pils malt content. 'No DMS' is not necessarily a goal that all brews should embrace. In fact, at low levels, DMS adds a nuance that is desirable. Its the brewer's task to make sure that the DMS level is not excessive or inappropriate.

Well said. Let's also end Diacetyl's reign of terror as a boogeyman while we're at it. It's quite nice, and appropriate, in a good brown ale, for starters.

[Robert]

DMS is allowed by the BJCP guidelines for many beer styles that employ high pils malt content. 'No DMS' is not necessarily a goal that all brews should embrace. In fact, at low levels, DMS adds a nuance that is desirable. Its the brewer's task to make sure that the DMS level is not excessive or inappropriate.

Well said. Let's also end Diacetyl's reign of terror as a boogeyman while we're at it. It's quite nice, and appropriate, in a good brown ale, for starters.

And how about -- dare I say it -- oxidative staling?  Remember, crystal malt came into use in England to mimic the oxidized (or as they saw it "mature") flavor of stock beers when brewers generally turned to running beers.  And those oxidize rapidly too, hence the even higher crystal malt levels homebrewers tend to use.

[Phil_M]

DMS is allowed by the BJCP guidelines for many beer styles that employ high pils malt content. 'No DMS' is not necessarily a goal that all brews should embrace. In fact, at low levels, DMS adds a nuance that is desirable. Its the brewer's task to make sure that the DMS level is not excessive or inappropriate.

Well said. Let's also end Diacetyl's reign of terror as a boogeyman while we're at it. It's quite nice, and appropriate, in a good brown ale, for starters.

And how about -- dare I say it -- oxidative staling?  Remember, crystal malt came into use in England to mimic the oxidized (or as they saw it "mature") flavor of stock beers when brewers generally turned to running beers.  And those oxidize rapidly too, hence the even higher crystal malt levels homebrewers tend to use.

First, I'm a staunch advocate of light staling. I love British styles, and went as far as getting a pin so I can put my homebrew on cask. I also know when a keg of my normal process beer will show these light oxidative signs, and serve it during that usually 3 day window.

The typical moderate oxidation (no sherry, but cloyingly sweet/overly crystal matly-ish in flavor) is a major no-no for me. I enjoy lower ABV quaffable beers, and that sort of staling makes a beer so cloying as to not want you to take than next sip for a while. (thus killing that quaffable character. Hopefully this makes sense.)

That light oxidation of a cask beer makes for more of a roughening of the sharp edges in the beer. I've seen references to late 19th/early 20th century British beers having a tannic quality, likely from the large amounts of low alpha hops used. The light oxidation of these beers can best be likened to letting a tannic red wine breath before serving. The qualities are all there, just smoothed a bit.

Weirdly, Yuengling falls into this category for me. When really fresh, the cascade hops are quite prominent, (if your palette isn't numbed by regular IIPA consumption) to the point that it's got a bit of that session IPA "not enough malt for those hops". Let it age just a couple days, and that keg is lovely. FWIW, I've only ever had it that fresh when I've bought kegs, the bottles and even cans oxidize way faster.


If folks like the carmelly notes of the full moderate oxidation/beers mimicking that oxidation, of course that's fine. As much as I don't care for them, even for me there are exceptions to that rule: I really love Sierra Nevada's Flipside Red IPA, and was thrilled that they re-released it.

[Robert]

Phil, your grasp of cellarmanship is admirable.  Your talk of that "window" takes me back.  Part of my personal beer journey was a few years spent in England in the late 80s.  That window was probably just opening when a cask got to the pub and had a day to settle.  Then it was something of a sport (very British and more fun than trainspotting) to observe, track and discuss the changes in that cask over the 3 days or so it would usually last.  Maybe I understand now why I also enjoy a Yuengling from time to time (only ever had cans or bottles.)  I've become very much a Pilsner brewer, but I know the standards of German beer aren't universal.

[Phil_M]

Honestly, I first noticed it on a Guinness clone kit that I didn't brew very well. This was back before I was using brewing water, and something must have been off pH wise in the mash. The resulting beer had a definite astringent quality that I think came from the roast barley. As the keg aged I noticed that problem diminished, then all the flavor in the beer disappeared.

Here's my keg stout process: I'll rack to an unpurged keg, and use the old burp the PRV to get as much O2 out as possible.  After this, I'll let the beer force carb for 5-6 days and serve. (I find it's usually still a bit undercarbed, even for a beer that's seeking to emulate cask, but it's not like you can wait.)

Certainly won't work for everything, IPA and low oxygen brewing especially. The downside of course is you have to drink the whole thing in a day or two, so it only works for parties/events. I've found there's usually one day at "peak", followed by a couple days of OK, then the flavor is gone. I wouldn't want to transport a beer kegged this way either, I'd be worried about any shaking increasing the amount of O2 getting into the beer and throwing the timeline off.

Oddly, the cask works better, seems the "peak" lasts longer. Likely a result of the (still active) yeast. I also find this quite interesting with all the CO2 and other cold-process staling discussion that's been going on, certainly shows other ways this staling affect could be leveraged for good.