Author Topic: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!  (Read 3375 times)

Online denny

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2018, 06:43:31 PM »
Kinda my point.  So many things affect character, there's probably genetic drift, and genes probably that affect response to climate and terroire,  so it shouldn't be surprising that a hop doesn't taste like a 50/50 blend of some example of two parents.  Seems hop breeding is kind of a "black box" situation.

I'm not sure about your "genetic drift" point.  It's not something I've ever heard discussed.  Lemme look into it with YCH and see if I can come up with any info.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2018, 06:47:06 PM »
Kinda my point.  So many things affect character, there's probably genetic drift, and genes probably that affect response to climate and terroire,  so it shouldn't be surprising that a hop doesn't taste like a 50/50 blend of some example of two parents.  Seems hop breeding is kind of a "black box" situation.

I'm not sure about your "genetic drift" point.  It's not something I've ever heard discussed.  Lemme look into it with YCH and see if I can come up with any info.
Cool. Experts are good! Stuff I've just wondered about.  But the question being why Citra  is what it is, that's the black box part in breeding anything I think.  They make so many crosses, not knowing what they'll get.
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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2018, 07:05:28 PM »
Cool. Experts are good! Stuff I've just wondered about.  But the question being why Citra  is what it is, that's the black box part in breeding anything I think.  They make so many crosses, not knowing what they'll get.

You're exactly right about not knowing what they'll get.  And I don't think intentional breeding is quite as common as you think.  Sure, they do it, but many new varieties are discovered rather than bred.  And keep in mind that hop growers look as much, if not more, for form factor and hardiness.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2018, 08:13:39 PM »
And for the record, I wasn't suggesting that Brewers Gold + Mittelfruh directly = Citra based on the attributes of both only.  :) 

I do get that there's a fair amount of blind luck and tons of experimentation done to get the new hops we buy. But just as there is breeding to find out what produces disease resistant tomatoes or potatoes, or what promotes a crisper, juicier apple with great sweet/acid balance, I strongly doubt that successful companies like HBC rely on ONLY blind luck to develop Citra, Ekuanot, etc. If I'm wrong I'll gladly stand corrected.
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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2018, 08:59:43 PM »
At Hop School they said Agronomics comes first. Disease resistance, yield per acre, ease of processing, time of maturity, and so on. One plant was pointed out that had a huge crown at the top, Jason Perrault said that was a failure as it would jam their machinery. When they get to a certain point in development, they brew beer with them on a homebrew set up. It looked like many use a 20 gallon More Beer system.

There seems to be some luck, but the pros like Jason Perrault have a good feel for what increases their chances.
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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2018, 09:02:44 PM »
And for the record, I wasn't suggesting that Brewers Gold + Mittelfruh directly = Citra based on the attributes of both only.  :) 

I do get that there's a fair amount of blind luck and tons of experimentation done to get the new hops we buy. But just as there is breeding to find out what produces disease resistant tomatoes or potatoes, or what promotes a crisper, juicier apple with great sweet/acid balance, I strongly doubt that successful companies like HBC rely on ONLY blind luck to develop Citra, Ekuanot, etc. If I'm wrong I'll gladly stand corrected.

You are correct, it's not ONLY luck.  But a very large part of it is.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2018, 09:18:50 PM »
Good info from all. Pretty interesting topic. I found it interesting that the hop we know as Citra would come from milder, lower oil 'parents'. Crossbred combos make for interesting possible outcomes. The world of mix breed dogs comes to mind.
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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2018, 09:27:30 PM »
Good info from all. Pretty interesting topic. I found it interesting that the hop we know as Citra would come from milder, lower oil 'parents'. Crossbred combos make for interesting possible outcomes. The world of mix breed dogs comes to mind.

Lemme tell ya, Hop and Brew School IS a real education.  Hope you can make it someday.
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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2018, 09:29:08 PM »
Good info from all. Pretty interesting topic. I found it interesting that the hop we know as Citra would come from milder, lower oil 'parents'. Crossbred combos make for interesting possible outcomes. The world of mix breed dogs comes to mind.

Lemme tell ya, Hop and Brew School IS a real education.  Hope you can make it someday.


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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2018, 05:07:58 PM »
When I first tasted Liberty Ale and Sierra Nevada, I recall a distinct lemony character.  Subjective, and memory dependent,  but I've heard others say that too.

You need to account for year to year crop variations and terroir.  A lot of Cascade from one farm will not be exactly like one from another farm.  Even on the same farm there can be lot to lot variations.  That's why brewers go to Yakima to sample from different lots and select exactly the lot they want.  Steve Dresler, from Sierra Nevada, is there every year...or was til he retired last year.

I recently got some cascade hops from Ted. Holy cow. Another level of delicious.

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2018, 05:41:51 PM »
When I first tasted Liberty Ale and Sierra Nevada, I recall a distinct lemony character.  Subjective, and memory dependent,  but I've heard others say that too.

You need to account for year to year crop variations and terroir.  A lot of Cascade from one farm will not be exactly like one from another farm.  Even on the same farm there can be lot to lot variations.  That's why brewers go to Yakima to sample from different lots and select exactly the lot they want.  Steve Dresler, from Sierra Nevada, is there every year...or was til he retired last year.

I recently got some cascade hops from Ted. Holy cow. Another level of delicious.

I have some bale core samples of Cascade from YCH that I'm dying to try.
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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2018, 06:34:59 PM »
When I first tasted Liberty Ale and Sierra Nevada, I recall a distinct lemony character.  Subjective, and memory dependent,  but I've heard others say that too.

You need to account for year to year crop variations and terroir.  A lot of Cascade from one farm will not be exactly like one from another farm.  Even on the same farm there can be lot to lot variations.  That's why brewers go to Yakima to sample from different lots and select exactly the lot they want.  Steve Dresler, from Sierra Nevada, is there every year...or was til he retired last year.

I recently got some cascade hops from Ted. Holy cow. Another level of delicious.


I used some of his Cascade in my current APA, too. Holy crap. Best Cascade I've used in years.
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Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2018, 06:58:24 PM »
When I first tasted Liberty Ale and Sierra Nevada, I recall a distinct lemony character.  Subjective, and memory dependent,  but I've heard others say that too.

You need to account for year to year crop variations and terroir.  A lot of Cascade from one farm will not be exactly like one from another farm.  Even on the same farm there can be lot to lot variations.  That's why brewers go to Yakima to sample from different lots and select exactly the lot they want.  Steve Dresler, from Sierra Nevada, is there every year...or was til he retired last year.

I recently got some cascade hops from Ted. Holy cow. Another level of delicious.


I used some of his Cascade in my current APA, too. Holy crap. Best Cascade I've used in years.

I need to know how his hops are on another level compared to most others. Does he just get them before everyone else and pack them sooner or something? Literally every hop variety I've gotten from him has just been a super flavored version of what I'm used to.

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2018, 07:36:37 PM »
I need to know how his hops are on another level compared to most others. Does he just get them before everyone else and pack them sooner or something? Literally every hop variety I've gotten from him has just been a super flavored version of what I'm used to.

He goes to Yakima and personally selects them.  But that's not unusual.  At harvest time at YCH, brewers and buyers from all over the country show up to select their hops.  He does nothing special in terms of packaging.  He just drives the bales back to his biz in Baker City and has his employees there package them.  (His wife used to do all the packaging!) I think at this point he's hired a couple people to work in the hop biz.  He's also building a warehouse/storage facility.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Mandarina Bavaria disgusting?!
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2018, 07:56:44 PM »
His 2017 Simcoe were the best I've ever used also FWIW. Still have some and they're stellar.


Edit for dumbassery - I  meant the 2016 Simcoe crop.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:02:39 PM by HoosierBrew »
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