### Author Topic: Oxidized DIPA -again...  (Read 2178 times)

#### The Beerery

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1550
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 01:59:03 AM »
Still wondering how much DO is introduced in the bit of sanitizer that remains in the keg.

Well it’s variable.  How much sanitizer? What temp water? How much DO in the water (8-12ppm). It would be easy enough to figure out.  Figure fermenting beer is sub 10ppb.  Say it’s an oz( .03 liter) and say the water is 10ppm( or 10000ppb) So then is straight math of 20l batch of 10ppb and .03 of 10000ppb.    What’s that like 15ppb on the sani and 10ppb on the main for 25ppb total?  Check that math I just quickly ran though it here on my phone.

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Yeah, that's kind of what I was coming up with (on my phone too) but thanks for confirming, I  know you have a better grasp of this! My takeaway is: my biggest risk is in the purity of the CO2 itself, especially force carbing to 2.6v/v.  But that's one thing I can't do anything about, at least for now. Purging with sani and closed transfers I've got covered.  Wonder if some sort of inline CO2 "scrubber" exists.

That’s why you spund and just use bottle co2 to push.  Half the exposure.

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#### klickitat jim

• I must live here
• Posts: 8600
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 02:00:05 AM »
Come on guys get out of your box!  Trim gas dip tube flush.  Push out everything you can.
Remove all connectors.  Invert keg, with gas dip tube at the lowest point.  Attach gas QD and blow out rest of sani using the residual pressure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The gasses don't mix when the keg is inverted?

#### Robert

• Brewmaster General
• Posts: 2188
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 02:00:11 AM »
Come on guys get out of your box!  Trim gas dip tube flush.  Push out everything you can.
Remove all connectors.  Invert keg, with gas dip tube at the lowest point.  Attach gas QD and blow out rest of sani using the residual pressure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It seems so obvious now.  Thanks.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

#### Robert

• Brewmaster General
• Posts: 2188
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 02:17:51 AM »
Still wondering how much DO is introduced in the bit of sanitizer that remains in the keg.

Well it’s variable.  How much sanitizer? What temp water? How much DO in the water (8-12ppm). It would be easy enough to figure out.  Figure fermenting beer is sub 10ppb.  Say it’s an oz( .03 liter) and say the water is 10ppm( or 10000ppb) So then is straight math of 20l batch of 10ppb and .03 of 10000ppb.    What’s that like 15ppb on the sani and 10ppb on the main for 25ppb total?  Check that math I just quickly ran though it here on my phone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, that's kind of what I was coming up with (on my phone too) but thanks for confirming, I  know you have a better grasp of this! My takeaway is: my biggest risk is in the purity of the CO2 itself, especially force carbing to 2.6v/v.  But that's one thing I can't do anything about, at least for now. Purging with sani and closed transfers I've got covered.  Wonder if some sort of inline CO2 "scrubber" exists.

That’s why you spund and just use bottle co2 to push.  Half the exposure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Spunding may be somewhere in the future,  but not near. For now I do all I can to avoid gratuitous O2. Not to make your skin crawl, but did I mention I filter? I flush the filter with water I've lightly carbonated and degassed a few times, to try to reduce DO there. Good old Dalton again (I think.)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

#### The Beerery

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1550
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2018, 03:14:25 AM »
Still wondering how much DO is introduced in the bit of sanitizer that remains in the keg.

Well it’s variable.  How much sanitizer? What temp water? How much DO in the water (8-12ppm). It would be easy enough to figure out.  Figure fermenting beer is sub 10ppb.  Say it’s an oz( .03 liter) and say the water is 10ppm( or 10000ppb) So then is straight math of 20l batch of 10ppb and .03 of 10000ppb.    What’s that like 15ppb on the sani and 10ppb on the main for 25ppb total?  Check that math I just quickly ran though it here on my phone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, that's kind of what I was coming up with (on my phone too) but thanks for confirming, I  know you have a better grasp of this! My takeaway is: my biggest risk is in the purity of the CO2 itself, especially force carbing to 2.6v/v.  But that's one thing I can't do anything about, at least for now. Purging with sani and closed transfers I've got covered.  Wonder if some sort of inline CO2 "scrubber" exists.

That’s why you spund and just use bottle co2 to push.  Half the exposure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Spunding may be somewhere in the future,  but not near. For now I do all I can to avoid gratuitous O2. Not to make your skin crawl, but did I mention I filter? I flush the filter with water I've lightly carbonated and degassed a few times, to try to reduce DO there. Good old Dalton again (I think.)

I have to ask why do you filter and what is your timeline for a lager from brewday until drink day?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#### hopfenundmalz

• Global Moderator
• I must live here
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• Milford, MI
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 03:21:08 AM »
Gases don’t stratify, they mix.

Will someone please tell the AHA this ^^^

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I will repeat that I contacted the AHA, Dave Carpenter in this case, and an update is being worked on.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

#### Robert

• Brewmaster General
• Posts: 2188
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 03:36:51 AM »
Still wondering how much DO is introduced in the bit of sanitizer that remains in the keg.

Well it’s variable.  How much sanitizer? What temp water? How much DO in the water (8-12ppm). It would be easy enough to figure out.  Figure fermenting beer is sub 10ppb.  Say it’s an oz( .03 liter) and say the water is 10ppm( or 10000ppb) So then is straight math of 20l batch of 10ppb and .03 of 10000ppb.    What’s that like 15ppb on the sani and 10ppb on the main for 25ppb total?  Check that math I just quickly ran though it here on my phone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, that's kind of what I was coming up with (on my phone too) but thanks for confirming, I  know you have a better grasp of this! My takeaway is: my biggest risk is in the purity of the CO2 itself, especially force carbing to 2.6v/v.  But that's one thing I can't do anything about, at least for now. Purging with sani and closed transfers I've got covered.  Wonder if some sort of inline CO2 "scrubber" exists.

That’s why you spund and just use bottle co2 to push.  Half the exposure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Spunding may be somewhere in the future,  but not near. For now I do all I can to avoid gratuitous O2. Not to make your skin crawl, but did I mention I filter? I flush the filter with water I've lightly carbonated and degassed a few times, to try to reduce DO there. Good old Dalton again (I think.)

I have to ask why do you filter and what is your timeline for a lager from brewday until drink day?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok, I know this isn't your way, but I'm happy with it.  I pitch 34/70 at 50°F, let fermentation go up to 54°F until 60% ADF (4 days) and let rise to 64°F until fermented out and yeast settling (7-8 days after pitching.)  Cool over 24 hours to the 30's, hold 24 hours more, and transfer off the yeast into lagering keg.  HARVEST YEAST AND REPITCH WITHIN 4 DAYS.  Beer is held at 29°-30°F for about 21 days (arbitrary -- 10 would likely do, this just fits my brew schedule.)  Then filter (coarse, 6-7 micron) and carbonate.  This system has me brewing every other weekend, doing equipment maintenance the other weekends.   It gives me clean, clear beer (filtration is sufficient to remove any yeast, chill haze will have settled in the lagering keg.)  And I have a good supply of yeast never more than 4 days from harvest to pitch.  I know this sounds more like conventional macrobrew method than what you advocate, that's true. But I've evolved this system carefully and every part really addresses a practical solution to some issue I've needed to address.  So, 5 weeks or so mash to tap, and good fresh beer with no real physical or flavor defects.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:18:16 AM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

#### hopfenundmalz

• Global Moderator
• I must live here
• Posts: 8983
• Milford, MI
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 04:12:48 AM »
CO2 can pool if there is a source, and confined space. Where I worked there were sources (cars), and below floor level pits ( for the car hoists), that had to be tested with a sniffer before entry for service was allowed. Fun fact, just 10% CO2 in the air you are breathing will kill you.

With time the gases will diffuse. Mixing from convection currents helps too. That is why the CO2 in the atmosphere doesn’t pool at the surface due to gravity and kill us.

I remember when Lake Nyos burped, emitted a cloud of CO2 that ran down a valley and killed 1700+ before it dissipated.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos

Running some CO2 into a keg might blanket the beer, for a little while. Then Dalton’s law says the CO2 and the O2 left will diffuse and reach equilibrium, exposing the beer to O2. Best practice says get the O2 out in the first place. Pushing sanitizer out is the way to go.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

#### The Beerery

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1550
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 12:28:31 PM »
Still wondering how much DO is introduced in the bit of sanitizer that remains in the keg.

Well it’s variable.  How much sanitizer? What temp water? How much DO in the water (8-12ppm). It would be easy enough to figure out.  Figure fermenting beer is sub 10ppb.  Say it’s an oz( .03 liter) and say the water is 10ppm( or 10000ppb) So then is straight math of 20l batch of 10ppb and .03 of 10000ppb.    What’s that like 15ppb on the sani and 10ppb on the main for 25ppb total?  Check that math I just quickly ran though it here on my phone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, that's kind of what I was coming up with (on my phone too) but thanks for confirming, I  know you have a better grasp of this! My takeaway is: my biggest risk is in the purity of the CO2 itself, especially force carbing to 2.6v/v.  But that's one thing I can't do anything about, at least for now. Purging with sani and closed transfers I've got covered.  Wonder if some sort of inline CO2 "scrubber" exists.

That’s why you spund and just use bottle co2 to push.  Half the exposure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Spunding may be somewhere in the future,  but not near. For now I do all I can to avoid gratuitous O2. Not to make your skin crawl, but did I mention I filter? I flush the filter with water I've lightly carbonated and degassed a few times, to try to reduce DO there. Good old Dalton again (I think.)

I have to ask why do you filter and what is your timeline for a lager from brewday until drink day?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok, I know this isn't your way, but I'm happy with it.  I pitch 34/70 at 50°F, let fermentation go up to 54°F until 60% ADF (4 days) and let rise to 64°F until fermented out and yeast settling (7-8 days after pitching.)  Cool over 24 hours to the 30's, hold 24 hours more, and transfer off the yeast into lagering keg.  HARVEST YEAST AND REPITCH WITHIN 4 DAYS.  Beer is held at 29°-30°F for about 21 days (arbitrary -- 10 would likely do, this just fits my brew schedule.)  Then filter (coarse, 6-7 micron) and carbonate.  This system has me brewing every other weekend, doing equipment maintenance the other weekends.   It gives me clean, clear beer (filtration is sufficient to remove any yeast, chill haze will have settled in the lagering keg.)  And I have a good supply of yeast never more than 4 days from harvest to pitch.  I know this sounds more like conventional macrobrew method than what you advocate, that's true. But I've evolved this system carefully and every part really addresses a practical solution to some issue I've needed to address.  So, 5 weeks or so mash to tap, and good fresh beer with no real physical or flavor defects.

I have nothing against macro brewing tactics or filtering.  I have a lot against dissolved o2!

Conversely without filtering/fining I can get really clear beer after 3 weeks and brilliantly clear after 4.  Using process alone.

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#### Robert

• Brewmaster General
• Posts: 2188
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2018, 01:18:54 PM »

I have nothing against macro brewing tactics or filtering.  I have a lot against dissolved o2!

Conversely without filtering/fining I can get really clear beer after 3 weeks and brilliantly clear after 4.  Using process alone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Like I said, I do all I can to avoid gratuitous O2.  That's why I'm in this thread advocating for purging with sani and closed transfers, and do what I can to minimize pickup at filtering.  I also feel that it's best to address flavor maturation (best achieved at 64°F,) physical stabilization and carbonation discretely.  A compromise process to achieve all 3 may not be ideal for any them.  (Philosophically, this is akin to step mashing, optimizing each part of the process; OTOH brewing is full of compromises.) Clearly you and I have each given long and careful consideration to identifying each goal at every stage in brewing and the preferred means to achieve them.  And come up with different answers.  I think that's a beautiful thing about brewing especially as a hobby.   My process is a result of evolution and learning and will no doubt continue to be so. At this point I dont identify any issues warranting a radical change.  Nice looking beer, by the way!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 01:21:01 PM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

#### BrewBama

• Senior Brewmaster
• Posts: 1749
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2018, 07:46:42 PM »
Gases don’t stratify, they mix.

Will someone please tell the AHA this ^^^

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I will repeat that I contacted the AHA, Dave Carpenter in this case, and an update is being worked on.

My deepest and most sincere apology. I recall you posting the AHA staff has been contacted and they will decide the appropriate action but do not recall an update is being worked on. I will no longer speak of the issue again lest I be duly chastised for causing you to repeat yourself.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Huntsville AL

#### hopfenundmalz

• Global Moderator
• I must live here
• Posts: 8983
• Milford, MI
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 08:18:37 PM »
Gases don’t stratify, they mix.

Will someone please tell the AHA this ^^^

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I will repeat that I contacted the AHA, Dave Carpenter in this case, and an update is being worked on.

My deepest and most sincere apology. I recall you posting the AHA staff has been contacted and they will decide the appropriate action but do not recall an update is being worked on. I will no longer speak of the issue again lest I be duly chastised for causing you to repeat yourself.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
After the contact, Dave worked on an update and i was asked for input. That last part you didn’t know, sorry about that. Hopefully the correct way will be printed soon. I will ask Dave for an update.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

#### majorvices

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• Posts: 9687
• Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2018, 12:22:11 AM »
CO2 can pool if there is a source, and confined space. Where I worked there were sources (cars), and below floor level pits ( for the car hoists), that had to be tested with a sniffer before entry for service was allowed. Fun fact, just 10% CO2 in the air you are breathing will kill you.

With time the gases will diffuse. Mixing from convection currents helps too. That is why the CO2 in the atmosphere doesn’t pool at the surface due to gravity and kill us.

I remember when Lake Nyos burped, emitted a cloud of CO2 that ran down a valley and killed 1700+ before it dissipated.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos

Running some CO2 into a keg might blanket the beer, for a little while. Then Dalton’s law says the CO2 and the O2 left will diffuse and reach equilibrium, exposing the beer to O2. Best practice says get the O2 out in the first place. Pushing sanitizer out is the way to go.

We have problems in the brewery with Co2 pooling in the office. We have Co2 readers in place in serval places and it definitely pools in certain areas.

OP: If it was mentioned I missed it: Do you think the o2 happened during dry hopping? I never go directly in a tank when I dry hop any loner. I add hops to the an empty tank, purge that tank with Co2, then run my beer into that tank through those hops.

#### hopfenundmalz

• Global Moderator
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• Posts: 8983
• Milford, MI
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2018, 05:44:03 PM »
Update.

Dave Carpenter got back to me. They are working on the write up, and he asks that we all have patience before it is published.

Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

#### Robert

• Brewmaster General
• Posts: 2188
##### Re: Oxidized DIPA -again...
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2018, 12:35:18 AM »
Come on guys get out of your box!  Trim gas dip tube flush.  Push out everything you can.
Remove all connectors.  Invert keg, with gas dip tube at the lowest point.  Attach gas QD and blow out rest of sani using the residual pressure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Okay I finally did this.  Simply brilliant.  Will never purge another way again, have to trim ALL my gas tubes now.

(Actually found replacement gas tubes impossible to trim: made of lightweight aluminum, easy to crush, also can't get a hold of anything to secure it while using tubing cutter.  Had a couple spare steel liquid tubes, trimmed off the flanged end to correct length.  So need more spears.)

Anyway, belated thanks for the tip!
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.