Author Topic: Clarifying agents  (Read 1820 times)

Offline Robert

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2168
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2018, 08:59:00 PM »
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.

+1. I am hearing for the first time that 34/70 is impossible to get clear. Do that many people really have this issue with it? I never have. Maybe my beers that look crystal clear to me are not "lab certified" crystal clear?

I have heard a lot of reports from people that don't like 34/70 but not that it is impossible to clear.
If you have heard of people who don't like 34/70 I wonder if they mean the dry "alleged" 34/70.  It is quite different from the "real thing" (WLP 830, WY 2124, Imperial Global, etc etc) in many people's opinion (mine included.)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline gman23

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3513
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2018, 09:14:26 PM »
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.

+1. I am hearing for the first time that 34/70 is impossible to get clear. Do that many people really have this issue with it? I never have. Maybe my beers that look crystal clear to me are not "lab certified" crystal clear?

I have heard a lot of reports from people that don't like 34/70 but not that it is impossible to clear.
If you have heard of people who don't like 34/70 I wonder if they mean the dry "alleged" 34/70.  It is quite different from the "real thing" (WLP 830, WY 2124, Imperial Global, etc etc) in many people's opinion (mine included.)

My bad. I assumed this was regarding Fermentis' particular dry strain which clears very well for me. It worked well for me in the past but prefer S-189 over it now. Carry on...
On Tap/Bottled: Kurbis Marzen, Red Rye, Vienna Lager, Dry Hopped Peach Cider       

Fermenting: Imperial Porter, Hopfenbier
Up Next: Maibock, Braunbier

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 19856
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2018, 09:21:02 PM »
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?

Cold crash and time
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2018, 09:22:33 PM »
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?

Cold crash and time
The colder the better, up to a point. 30F works for me.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Robert

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2168
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2018, 09:24:22 PM »
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?

Cold crash and time
I crash and lager at 29°-30°F. Guess I haven't found enough time (for me at least, a month ain't it!)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline skyler

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 824
  • Hmm. Human music. I like it.
    • View Profile
    • Brewing After Law School
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2018, 10:30:57 PM »
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.

Offline Robert

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2168
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2018, 01:43:58 AM »
Remembered something else.  LHBS sells sachets of what claims to be prepared liquid isinglass.  Always thought the stuff was hard to prepare and very sensitive to storage conditions.  Can this stuff possibly be legit?
https://www.grapeandgranary.com/homebrewing/additives/fining-agents/isinglass-45ml-package.html
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2018, 03:21:09 AM »
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.

Biofine is made from swim bladders. Williams sells Biofine-clear, which is a SiO2 product, not derived from animal products, and is vegan friendly. So your good!

I wanted to make the difference clear (no pun intended) for people that want vegetarian/vegan solutions.

I might have to get some from Williams. I did buy Brewtan-B from them recently.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Robert

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2168
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 03:27:58 AM »
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.

Biofine is made from swim bladders. Williams sells Biofine-clear, which is a SiO2 product, not derived from animal products, and is vegan friendly. So your good!

I wanted to make the difference clear (no pun intended) for people that want vegetarian/vegan solutions.

I might have to get some from Williams. I did buy Brewtan-B from them recently.
Williams posts a warning (see their site) that Biofine is ruined by freezing temperatures and should not be ordered in winter by those who experience cold.  We in OH and MI had better wait before ordering, Jeff.  Maybe the ice age will end. Maybe.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 04:01:08 AM »
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.

Biofine is made from swim bladders. Williams sells Biofine-clear, which is a SiO2 product, not derived from animal products, and is vegan friendly. So your good!

I wanted to make the difference clear (no pun intended) for people that want vegetarian/vegan solutions.

I might have to get some from Williams. I did buy Brewtan-B from them recently.
Williams posts a warning (see their site) that Biofine is ruined by freezing temperatures and should not be ordered in winter by those who experience cold.  We in OH and MI had better wait before ordering, Jeff.  Maybe the ice age will end. Maybe.

I did look it up to see that it was Biofine-clear. I need to read the fine print now.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline JT

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1412
  • Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH
    • View Profile
    • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2018, 01:46:06 PM »

JT,  here was my thought on how to minimize 02: Purge keg with sanitizer.  Leaving ~1psi on the gas in, remove liquid dip tube, introduce gelatin (having boiled water for blooming) with one of those big syringes you find in the paint department at the big box, and replace with my trimmed dip tube.  Proceed with closed transfer from fermentor to keg.  (Beer will indeed be cold.) Wait 3 weeks and jump to serving keg and carbonate.  BTW this will be the 2nd Pils with the simplified mash --  maybe I can really simplify and improve! (The total O2 pickup should be less than filtering.  I'm not on the LODO bus either, but why add it gratuitously!)

Still looking for g/gallon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MtzVAKiXJ4
check this link out from Bryan's youtube channel. Similar to what you described Robert.
 @The Beerery - do you use biofine?  benefits over gelatin?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 03:50:25 PM by JT »

Offline JT

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1412
  • Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH
    • View Profile
    • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2018, 01:52:09 PM »
^^^^
JT, yeah, can't add to fermentor because repitching is central to my system (generation 11 in fermentor now, hope it's still early days on this culture. ) I know gelatin leaves a fluffy sediment,  hoping 1" trim on dip tube will have me covered.  Thoughts?
I think a Clear Beer system might be worth a try to avoid keg jumping after fining.  It draws from the top.  Trimming the diptube would work as well, if you trim enough.  I've fined right in the keg and was able to pour crystal beer from it, but you sure do get some initial slurry bombs first. I've not trimmed the diptubes.   

Offline Robert

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2168
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2018, 04:34:08 PM »
Thanks, JT.   Upon further review, I've decided...to change nothing.   Everything I might change bumps up against some other element of my process, which really has been evolved as an organic whole.  So FOR ME, coarse pad filtration is the way to go.  Isn't it great how many options there are in brewing, and how there's never just one right answer?  I hope all of the ideas in this thread have helped the OP! (What exactly was he asking anyway...? ;))
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline sladek

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2018, 11:11:52 PM »
I am wondering the difference between some clarifying agents. I typically use whirl flock at 10 minutes or so and have also used gelatin in secondary instead of whirlflock. Never in a keg.

Are there benefits to using more than one clarifying agent when you brew and move on to kegging or bottling?
I am in the process of fermenting a lager and have have great success with clear beers in the past. 

I used whirl flock for this recipe and have never used two agents in a beer before, should I? Or is it unnecessary?

I don't use anything...clarity is overrated.

Offline JT

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1412
  • Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH
    • View Profile
    • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2018, 06:21:40 AM »


I hope all of the ideas in this thread have helped the OP! (What exactly was he asking anyway...? ;))

Good point, I had to scroll back up.  Finings I use:
Irish moss in the boil.  Almost always. 
Gelatin cold side (when using a cold side fining). 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."