Author Topic: Clarifying agents  (Read 2358 times)

Offline JT

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2018, 03:26:46 AM »
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

That sounds simple. I used to boil water, then bring it down to 160 and add pre-bloomed gel.  Guess it might reduce 02 that way.  Anybody have a dose in g/gallon?  And is there any difference between racking beer onto gelatin and adding gelatin to racked beer?
The trick with gelatin is to get your beer COLD first.  I added the still hot mixture straight to a carboy or keg.  Clear in 48 hours.  Brilliant unless than a week.  I'm moving away from it though in my quest to eliminate cold side o2 pick up.  I'm not lodo brewing, but cold side elimination just seems like good practice.  Thinking about trying out the Clear Beer draught system.
That said, if you need clear in a hurry, gelatin is your weapon. 
I placed BOS in competition with a very fresh Kölsch that was gelatin fined in the carboy before racking to a purged keg. 

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Online Robert

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2018, 03:37:53 AM »
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

That sounds simple. I used to boil water, then bring it down to 160 and add pre-bloomed gel.  Guess it might reduce 02 that way.  Anybody have a dose in g/gallon?  And is there any difference between racking beer onto gelatin and adding gelatin to racked beer?
The trick with gelatin is to get your beer COLD first.  I added the still hot mixture straight to a carboy or keg.  Clear in 48 hours.  Brilliant unless than a week.  I'm moving away from it though in my quest to eliminate cold side o2 pick up.  I'm not lodo brewing, but cold side elimination just seems like good practice.  Thinking about trying out the Clear Beer draught system.
That said, if you need clear in a hurry, gelatin is your weapon. 
I placed BOS in competition with a very fresh Kölsch that was gelatin fined in the carboy before racking to a purged keg. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

JT,  here was my thought on how to minimize 02: Purge keg with sanitizer.  Leaving ~1psi on the gas in, remove liquid dip tube, introduce gelatin (having boiled water for blooming) with one of those big syringes you find in the paint department at the big box, and replace with my trimmed dip tube.  Proceed with closed transfer from fermentor to keg.  (Beer will indeed be cold.) Wait 3 weeks and jump to serving keg and carbonate.  BTW this will be the 2nd Pils with the simplified mash --  maybe I can really simplify and improve! (The total O2 pickup should be less than filtering.  I'm not on the LODO bus either, but why add it gratuitously!)

Still looking for g/gallon.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 03:39:27 AM by Robert »
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Offline JT

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2018, 03:49:35 AM »
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

That sounds simple. I used to boil water, then bring it down to 160 and add pre-bloomed gel.  Guess it might reduce 02 that way.  Anybody have a dose in g/gallon?  And is there any difference between racking beer onto gelatin and adding gelatin to racked beer?
The trick with gelatin is to get your beer COLD first.  I added the still hot mixture straight to a carboy or keg.  Clear in 48 hours.  Brilliant unless than a week.  I'm moving away from it though in my quest to eliminate cold side o2 pick up.  I'm not lodo brewing, but cold side elimination just seems like good practice.  Thinking about trying out the Clear Beer draught system.
That said, if you need clear in a hurry, gelatin is your weapon. 
I placed BOS in competition with a very fresh Kölsch that was gelatin fined in the carboy before racking to a purged keg. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

JT,  here was my thought on how to minimize 02: Purge keg with sanitizer.  Leaving ~1psi on the gas in, remove liquid dip tube, introduce gelatin (having boiled water for blooming) with one of those big syringes you find in the paint department at the big box, and replace with my trimmed dip tube.  Proceed with closed transfer from fermentor to keg.  (Beer will indeed be cold.) Wait 3 weeks and jump to serving keg and carbonate.  BTW this will be the 2nd Pils with the simplified mash --  maybe I can really simplify and improve! (The total O2 pickup should be less than filtering.  I'm not on the LODO bus either, but why add it gratuitously!)

Still looking for g/gallon.
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/06/how-to-clear-your-beer-with-gelatin.html
This was pretty much my process except I preboiled the water (again, to try to remove o2).  I believe Jon used to use a large syringe through the PRV. 
I preferred the results of adding gelatin to the fermenter, but then wouldn't reuse the yeast.  Adding to the keg works just fine too, but there is quite a bit of sludge on the bottom. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."


Online Robert

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2018, 03:56:44 AM »
^^^^
JT, yeah, can't add to fermentor because repitching is central to my system (generation 11 in fermentor now, hope it's still early days on this culture. ) I know gelatin leaves a fluffy sediment,  hoping 1" trim on dip tube will have me covered.  Thoughts?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2018, 03:01:41 PM »
Polyclar will remove chill haze.

Lagering at 30F will drop out 34/70, in my experience.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 03:03:22 PM by hopfenundmalz »
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Online Robert

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2018, 03:04:05 PM »
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 03:06:23 PM »
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
Some say that about gelatin. I really haven’t noticed a problem, but didn’t do an A/B brew and triangle test.
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Online Robert

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2018, 03:28:57 PM »
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
Some say that about gelatin. I really haven’t noticed a problem, but didn’t do an A/B brew and triangle test.
No formal comparisons either, but I did notice the difference when I stopped using Polyclar.   And the sediment with Polyclar smells VERY hoppy, so it makes sense that some hop products (and their  contribution to foam) would no longer be in the beer.  I'd not be surprised if this were true also of gelatin, no clarifying agent can be perfectly selective.  Coarse filtration seems least detrimental to beer character, to me at least. It will MOSTLY  just remove what cold storage has precipitated. If you can get away with just cold storage and decanting, lucky you!
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Offline James K

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2018, 04:07:26 PM »
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
Some say that about gelatin. I really haven’t noticed a problem, but didn’t do an A/B brew and triangle test.

I never heard of polycar before but I wouldn’t risk it if it removed hop char. Not a lot of hops to begin with, only like 16ibu from 3oz. 3aa saaz and 2 2aa tettenang. I have only used gelatin once and the hop char came through quite well on that beer. Flavor and aroma.

This beer looks mighty clear in the carboy, but that doesn’t mean their isn’t haze.
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Offline zwiller

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2018, 10:10:52 PM »
While I agree polyclar does strip some hop character, it removes some of the negative attributes of the hops/astringency and not the good stuff.  I find it makes the flavor much more polished or professional.  IBU wise, I doubt it's even 10% or so.  People are surprised but I use it at 10m to KO with WF (brewbrite).  Insane clarity but still struggle a bit with 3470.  Otherwise with typical yeast you would think the beer is filtered.  PVPP is about as close to "perfectly selective" as you can get. 
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Offline Ellismr

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2018, 07:04:54 PM »
I just made a German Pils with WLP 830.  I used Whirfloc in the kettle and racked onto liquid isinglass.  then I lagered for 4 weeks.  It smelld and tasted great it was mostly clear but it you put it next to a commercial Warstiener German Pils doesn't come close.  Don;t get me wrong I can still see my fingers through the glass but I think the extrara filtering or centrifuge activity helps these guys.
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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2018, 08:07:27 PM »
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)
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Offline denny

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2018, 08:35:08 PM »
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.
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Online Robert

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2018, 08:37:29 PM »
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?
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Offline Iliff Ave Brewhouse

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Re: Clarifying agents
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2018, 08:46:10 PM »
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.

+1. I am hearing for the first time that 34/70 is impossible to get clear. Do that many people really have this issue with it? I never have. Maybe my beers that look crystal clear to me are not "lab certified" crystal clear?

I have heard a lot of reports from people that don't like 34/70 but not that it is impossible to clear.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:47:57 PM by goschman »
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