Author Topic: Bittering addition amounts for ipa  (Read 1736 times)

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3667
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2018, 03:04:54 AM »
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.

IBUs by way of calculation are a sensory guidepost. I’m less concerned with absolute values and more concerned with how I can use the calculations to predict what tastes good to me.
Big Monk, you're dangerously close to getting this thread back on track.  What are you thinking!?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2018, 03:05:50 AM »
I imagine the 2005 OSU study used fresh hops though. By oxidized alpha and beta, I dont think they mean stale.
Hops are also utilized differently now,  so there's equal but different opportunity to extract bitter substances other than iso-alpha.  In the day, increased solubility of beta offset decreases in alpha, then all the other stuff.  The whole BU concept needs reevaluation, which I presume they are working towards.
After they first perfect the IMF, I hope.

Offline yso191

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1813
  • Yakima, WA
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2018, 02:03:11 PM »
What was your level of Magnesium?  I found that was the difference when I was encountering low *perceived* bitterness.  I would regularly have calculated IBU's of over 100 but the IPA would have the bitterness of a Pale Ale, until I upped the Magnesium... boom!  Perceived bitterness.

My target now is 20-24 ppm of Magnesium.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 03:51:50 PM by yso191 »
Steve
BJCP #D1667

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” ― G.K. Chesterton

Offline petermmitchell

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 44
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2018, 03:45:51 PM »
Thanks everyone for sharing your suggestions!  I am not currently adding any magnesium to my water adjustments.  Just calcium chloride and gypsum and lactic acid to adjust mash PH.  I would guess the magnesium ppm would be pretty close to 0.  Would you suggest adding some epsom salt maybe?

Offline yso191

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1813
  • Yakima, WA
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2018, 03:55:20 PM »
If you don’t already have it, use Bru’n Water for water salts and pH. 
Steve
BJCP #D1667

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” ― G.K. Chesterton

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2018, 04:31:51 PM »
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.

The science from OSU says isomorization goes on below boiling. You get less as the temperature goes down.

Yeah, as low as 180F IRC.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2018, 04:32:49 PM »
"When someone asks how many IBUs I say I don't know"

And when someone tells you how many IBUs, they don't know!  ;)
IBUs are pretty accurate for th3 beers they were developed on. The clear lagers of the 60s, with one bettering addition.

Just like Tinseth's formula is accurate as long as you don't use pellets and boil and chill on a system just like his.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2018, 04:33:59 PM »
Some of the calcs I’ve seen essentially take the OSU paper and use the findings to produce a modifier for the Tinseth Utilization value as follows:

Whirlpool Utilization = Regular Utilization * 0.6^((212-Whirlpool Temp (°F))/18)

EDIT: So say U is calculated at 0.125, and you whirlpool at 180 °F, U would be modified to:

0.125 * 0.403 = ~ 0.05

Based on my conversations with Glenn Tinseth, it would seem that modifying his formula may not be the best idea.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Big Monk

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • I’m Derek Scott. I’m a Category 26 kind of guy.
    • Low Oxygen Brewing
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2018, 07:12:40 PM »
Some of the calcs I’ve seen essentially take the OSU paper and use the findings to produce a modifier for the Tinseth Utilization value as follows:

Whirlpool Utilization = Regular Utilization * 0.6^((212-Whirlpool Temp (°F))/18)

EDIT: So say U is calculated at 0.125, and you whirlpool at 180 °F, U would be modified to:

0.125 * 0.403 = ~ 0.05

Based on my conversations with Glenn Tinseth, it would seem that modifying his formula may not be the best idea.

It’s a tool. Just like any tool, it can be manipulated to give results that correspond with sensory analysis. IBU calculations are a guidepost. You use values from commercial examples and examples of beers you’ve brewed and you use the equations to make the sensory analysis of those beers line up.

 
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2018, 07:23:02 PM »
Some of the calcs I’ve seen essentially take the OSU paper and use the findings to produce a modifier for the Tinseth Utilization value as follows:

Whirlpool Utilization = Regular Utilization * 0.6^((212-Whirlpool Temp (°F))/18)

EDIT: So say U is calculated at 0.125, and you whirlpool at 180 °F, U would be modified to:

0.125 * 0.403 = ~ 0.05

Based on my conversations with Glenn Tinseth, it would seem that modifying his formula may not be the best idea.

It’s a tool. Just like any tool, it can be manipulated to give results that correspond with sensory analysis. IBU calculations are a guidepost. You use values from commercial examples and examples of beers you’ve brewed and you use the equations to make the sensory analysis of those beers line up.

Yep.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline petermmitchell

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 44
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2018, 10:56:03 PM »
Silly question - but is there a particular kind / brand of epsom salt to use for water adjustments?  Is the laxative one ok, lol

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3667
Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2018, 11:05:57 PM »
Silly question - but is there a particular kind / brand of epsom salt to use for water adjustments?  Is the laxative one ok, lol
Yeah, that's the one.  The USP epsom salt from the pharmacy.  If it's labelled as a laxative (as well as a bath soak etc.) it's pure and safe for food use.  If it's just labelled for bathing or whatever, don't brew with it.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.