[denny]

Well, when I take a couple drops from a settled mash with a pipette all I get is clear liquid, but if it's really sludgy having just been stirred, (I do this with fermenting beer too,) I'll put a couple drops through a coffee filter. I find clear samples really give a more accurate reading even on a digital unit.  With a hydrometer sample, you don't want the hydrometer getting pushed up by the suspended particles and giving a false reading (remember the thread about swimming pools and poodles? I mean, suspended yeast?)  So it just seems all in all more trouble to keep taking mash readings with a hydrometer.  But the end result is, you get the same information. Just my preference.

I also filtered a sample and but I saw no difference in my reading.  Yes, if you have a thick, solid layer of sludge it can hold the hydrometer too high, but I make sure not to do that.

[soymateofeo]

i would agree that efficiency is not important but only to a certain point.  if you have extremely low efficiency, you can easily excede the abilities of your mash tun with a higher gravity brew. I know an efficiency below 65% would have me bothered.  If your kettle size isn't an issue, consistency is important for nailing target gravities.  You can always add water and dme to dial in your OG until you figure it out.

[Hooper]

This is an interesting read...it seems a fine crush may be working against you...

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

[Robert]

This is an interesting read...it seems a fine crush may be working against you...

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

But note they're talking about  brewers doing conventional lautering (like them and me.)  There it makes sense.  But the OP is doing BIAB.  In that case, and especially full volume BIAB, you could grind finer because the flow concerns just don't apply.  I'd  think finer would help in that case.  Same should apply to batch sparge if you can adequately filter the wort.  Anyway, good summary of the issue there.

[dmtaylor]

This is an interesting read...it seems a fine crush may be working against you...

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

But note they're talking about  brewers doing conventional lautering (like them and me.)  There it makes sense.  But the OP is doing BIAB.  In that case, and especially full volume BIAB, you could grind finer because the flow concerns just don't apply.  I'd  think finer would help in that case.  Same should apply to batch sparge if you can adequately filter the wort.  Anyway, good summary of the issue there.

I just got through listening to the Master Brewer's podcast about this.  He had me going for a while.... but then lost me.  I'm "Havig" a hard time believing that his findings are true for all small brewers.  It's definitely something to think about and play around with, but I'd take great care in assuming either a hard crush or lighter crush is necessarily better or worse or whatever based on just one study.  More experiments are needed.  And like Robert says, any correlation to homebrewing, especially BIAB or batch sparging, is very likely irrelevant.  We as homebrewers need to take great care in determining what stuff from the commercial world we can apply to our stuff at home, and what doesn't fit well with what we are doing.  This might be the perfect example right here.

[BrewBama]

This is an interesting read...it seems a fine crush may be working against you...

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

Which was the reason for my post above. (#11)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Big Monk]

This is an interesting read...it seems a fine crush may be working against you...

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

But note they're talking about  brewers doing conventional lautering (like them and me.)  There it makes sense.  But the OP is doing BIAB.  In that case, and especially full volume BIAB, you could grind finer because the flow concerns just don't apply.  I'd  think finer would help in that case.  Same should apply to batch sparge if you can adequately filter the wort.  Anyway, good summary of the issue there.

I just got through listening to the Master Brewer's podcast about this.  He had me going for a while.... but then lost me.  I'm "Havig" a hard time believing that his findings are true for all small brewers.  It's definitely something to think about and play around with, but I'd take great care in assuming either a hard crush or lighter crush is necessarily better or worse or whatever based on just one study.  More experiments are needed.  And like Robert says, any correlation to homebrewing, especially BIAB or batch sparging, is very likely irrelevant.  We as homebrewers need to take great care in determining what stuff from the commercial world we can apply to our stuff at home, and what doesn't fit well with what we are doing.  This might be the perfect example right here.

I think you should put “More experiments are needed.” in your signature.

Personally I like to condition the grain every so slightly to keep the husk intact, allow it to grab better in my simple 2 roller mill, and also so that I can crush a little tighter.

[dmtaylor]

I think you should put “More experiments are needed.” in your signature.

Heh... It certainly is a common phrase from me.  However at least for the time being, and probably for the rest of the 21st century, I prefer the prevailing point pertaining to general idiocy. 

[Robert]

I think you should put “More experiments are needed.” in your signature.

Heh... It certainly is a common phrase from me.  However at least for the time being, and probably for the rest of the 21st century, I prefer the prevailing point pertaining to general idiocy. 

I believe it's Socratic wisdom:  The point on general idiocy implies the need for more experiments, so you're good!

[denny]

This is an interesting read...it seems a fine crush may be working against you...

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

But that will depend on each person's system and crush.  My efficiency definitely increased when I went to a finer crush.  You just can't generalize.

[hopfenundmalz]

This is an interesting read...it seems a fine crush may be working against you...

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf

But that will depend on each person's system and crush.  My efficiency definitely increased when I went to a finer crush.  You just can't generalize.

Let’s see, BIAB, Batch sparge with a hose braid, false bottom and fly sparging. One would expect different results for different equipment and process.

[ynotbrusum]

This is just one data point, but I found my efficiency dropped when my mill gap slipped a couple years ago.  I thought it was the grain, initially, but checked the gap with feelers and there was the culprit.  I grind around .025 gap and condition the grain, also, as I like the greater intact husk results I get with conditioning.  BIAB with HERMS recirc and Hochkurz step mash as the process for most of my beers (lagers).

[Big Monk]

This is just one data point, but I found my efficiency dropped when my mill gap slipped a couple years ago.  I thought it was the grain, initially, but checked the gap with feelers and there was the culprit.  I grind around .025 gap and condition the grain, also, as I like the greater intact husk results I get with conditioning.  BIAB with HERMS recirc and Hochkurz step mash as the process for most of my beers (lagers).

Undamaged husks, finer grind, and recirc is where’s it’s at. Clear wort, smooth lautering and great efficiency.

[Robert]

This is just one data point, but I found my efficiency dropped when my mill gap slipped a couple years ago.  I thought it was the grain, initially, but checked the gap with feelers and there was the culprit.  I grind around .025 gap and condition the grain, also, as I like the greater intact husk results I get with conditioning.  BIAB with HERMS recirc and Hochkurz step mash as the process for most of my beers (lagers).

Undamaged husks, finer grind, and recirc is where’s it’s at. Clear wort, smooth lautering and great efficiency.

Something I've noticed lately trying a lot of different malts, local and not.  With the same mill gap and the same rpm,  some malts give nearly intact husks (recent examples for me, Simpson's and a local product) and others noticeably more fragmented husks (e.g. Rahr and even Weyermann.)  It would seem some combination of barley variety and processing contribute to the quality of milled malt, and I'd like to see more study on this.  Note that each category in my above examples includes a high protein domestic and a low protein European representative.

[goose]

This is just one data point, but I found my efficiency dropped when my mill gap slipped a couple years ago.  I thought it was the grain, initially, but checked the gap with feelers and there was the culprit.  I grind around .025 gap and condition the grain, also, as I like the greater intact husk results I get with conditioning.  BIAB with HERMS recirc and Hochkurz step mash as the process for most of my beers (lagers).

Undamaged husks, finer grind, and recirc is where’s it’s at. Clear wort, smooth lautering and great efficiency.

Something I've noticed lately trying a lot of different malts, local and not.  With the same mill gap and the same rpm,  some malts give nearly intact husks (recent examples for me, Simpson's and a local product) and others noticeably more fragmented husks (e.g. Rahr and even Weyermann.)  It would seem some combination of barley variety and processing contribute to the quality of milled malt, and I'd like to see more study on this.  Note that each category in my above examples includes a high protein domestic and a low protein European representative.

Interesting observation, Rob.  I use Maris Otter, Briess 2 Row Brewers Malt, Simpsons Golden Promise, Wyermann and Best Maltz Pilsner.  I will check out the husks on these when I next use them and see if I have the same issue.
I know that different lot numbers will give different extractions having experienced that before both at home and professionally. I also find my efficiencies are usually 5% or so lower with my darker beers (Porters and Stouts) than they are with my lighter beers.  I think that may have something to do with the darker grains in the mash as I mash everything together and not separate the dark grains out and add them back before lautering.