[Andy Farke]

The discussion on O2 ingress via beverage/gas lines is interesting food for thought. I wonder how it actually ends up in reality. Real-world conditions always deviate from the predictions of simple equations--the question is by how much and over what timeframe.

As my professorial spouse with a Ph.D. in physics often says, "Assume a spherical cow..."

[Big Monk]

The discussion on O2 ingress via beverage/gas lines is interesting food for thought. I wonder how it actually ends up in reality. Real-world conditions always deviate from the predictions of simple equations--the question is by how much and over what timeframe.

As my professorial spouse with a Ph.D. in physics often says, "Assume a spherical cow..."

In my previous career, I worked in electrical design at a nuclear generating station. The way we would demonstrate margin in many cases was to make calculations based on worst case scenarios and then show, through calibration and testing data, real time plant data, etc. that we historically never even approached those sort of "doomsday" numbers.

In this case we did sort of the same thing, except that we made the inference that most brewers (I say most here because let's be real, many of the people who post here are NOT beginner brewers, especially ones that would engage in a conversation like this, so we are the niche within the niche) are actually practicing a bit of conservatism here, i.e. using a 99.9% pure CO2 (30 ppm, which is still borderline). So it was aimed squarely at people who might not know anything about CO2 purity or ingress through hoses, etc. and not necessarily for more experienced brewers. For most who may subscribe to the "CO2 is CO2" thought process, they may be using the actual worst case, which would be 99.5% or "Industrial" grade CO2.

So in a sense, per my nuclear example above, we aimed to show margin but in the end came to the conclusion that maybe many people don't have it. Of course, YMMV given availability, location, etc.

I should also note that above all else, the amount calculated for force carbonation is going right into the beer, right away.

[reverseapachemaster]

math

You also need to account for the pressure within the beer line and the temperature of the beer. Both of those factors will delay ingress. Not denying that ingress occurs but that additional factors definitely exist that reduce ingress under kegging conditions versus the same tubing sitting without a liquid, a pressurized liquid and at room temperature.

[Joe Sr.]

I’d say that if you live and die in “Stage B” then the degradation will be less noticeable across the life of a keg, especially if kept cold and drank fast.

Also, keep in mind that the fact that most people’s Beer lives in “Stage B” is not an insult, as that stage is more about the gradual flavor loss than anything else. These aren’t the oft quoted “Stage C” flavors of cardboard, vinegar, earthiness, skunkiness, sherry, etc. I want to make that clear. Just because I make a distinction like that doesn’t mean I’m insulting anyone, just offering tips for improvement.

I've been reading through this thread the last few days and thought I would chime in.  I don't really understand the continuing bickering and it bothers me if it drives good guys like Jim away from the forum.

I think we all can agree that oxidation happens and it's something we want to avoid.  How much it matters to you and how much effort you put into it is up to you, but personal preference won't change the fact that oxidation happens.

I also think that Derek is spot on with his statement about Stage B flavors.  We all know that imported beers are hard to get fresh and are frequently oxidized.  They don't taste the same as fresh bottles.  The beers that homebrewers have tried to emulate over the years have often been these oxidized examples.  Look at the amount of crystal malts used in English-style homebrews and then compare that to the grain bill of the original sample.  We're using crystal malt to emulate the oxidized flavors, but those are the flavors that many of us expect and enjoy.  I'm not saying that's bad, it just is.  I've even gone out to find some of the canned imports (I think Urquell but can't recall) that are supposed to have "IT" but frankly if ITs there, my palate doesn't know what it's looking for.  Most of us haven't tasted that, so we're not missing it.

I don't brew often enough these days to have perfectly fresh beer as my brewing goal.  Truth be told, my goal is simply to find time to brew.  I've changed some of my process to eliminate O2 ingress. It wasn't difficult and I believe it to be beneficial.

Do what you like, but there's no reason to sling mud at each other if you choose to take different approaches.

[Big Monk]

I’d say that if you live and die in “Stage B” then the degradation will be less noticeable across the life of a keg, especially if kept cold and drank fast.

Also, keep in mind that the fact that most people’s Beer lives in “Stage B” is not an insult, as that stage is more about the gradual flavor loss than anything else. These aren’t the oft quoted “Stage C” flavors of cardboard, vinegar, earthiness, skunkiness, sherry, etc. I want to make that clear. Just because I make a distinction like that doesn’t mean I’m insulting anyone, just offering tips for improvement.

I've been reading through this thread the last few days and thought I would chime in.  I don't really understand the continuing bickering and it bothers me if it drives good guys like Jim away from the forum.

I think we all can agree that oxidation happens and it's something we want to avoid.  How much it matters to you and how much effort you put into it is up to you, but personal preference won't change the fact that oxidation happens.

I also think that Derek is spot on with his statement about Stage B flavors.  We all know that imported beers are hard to get fresh and are frequently oxidized.  They don't taste the same as fresh bottles.  The beers that homebrewers have tried to emulate over the years have often been these oxidized examples.  Look at the amount of crystal malts used in English-style homebrews and then compare that to the grain bill of the original sample.  We're using crystal malt to emulate the oxidized flavors, but those are the flavors that many of us expect and enjoy.  I'm not saying that's bad, it just is.  I've even gone out to find some of the canned imports (I think Urquell but can't recall) that are supposed to have "IT" but frankly if ITs there, my palate doesn't know what it's looking for.  Most of us haven't tasted that, so we're not missing it.

I don't brew often enough these days to have perfectly fresh beer as my brewing goal.  Truth be told, my goal is simply to find time to brew.  I've changed some of my process to eliminate O2 ingress. It wasn't difficult and I believe it to be beneficial.

Do what you like, but there's no reason to sling mud at each other if you choose to take different approaches.

I definitely didn't intend for this thread to be anything negative. We just had some observations that we thought might apply across the board.

[Joe Sr.]

I definitely didn't intend for this thread to be anything negative. We just had some observations that we thought might apply across the board.

I didn't mean to imply you did and apologize if that's how it came off.  I think your observations on are point.

[narvin]

Spunding is the obvious fix for force carbonation, but what about when you start serving?  I would think that O2 diffusion would happen even after beer is carbonated when impure CO2 is used for serving.

Have you looked into any type of CO2 purifier, since I don't think homebrewers really have access to a legitimate source of high-purity CO2?  Or, do you think a bag in a box / party pig style keg would improve shelf life?

[Robert]

Spunding is the obvious fix for force carbonation, but what about when you start serving?  I would think that O2 diffusion would happen even after beer is carbonated when impure CO2 is used for serving.

Have you looked into any type of CO2 purifier, since I don't think homebrewers really have access to a legitimate source of high-purity CO2?  Or, do you think a bag in a box / party pig style keg would improve shelf life?

See my reply #116, don't know if this does it.

[Big Monk]

I definitely didn't intend for this thread to be anything negative. We just had some observations that we thought might apply across the board.

I didn't mean to imply you did and apologize if that's how it came off.  I think your observations on are point.

For sure Joe. It was more of a general statement. I knew what you meant.

[tesgüino]

I've been reading through this thread the last few days and thought I would chime in.  I don't really understand the continuing bickering and it bothers me if it drives good guys like Jim away from the forum.

I see a lot of the LODO posts as being passive aggressive trolling, playing on the OCD nature of homebrewers. The flip side is that very interesting and thought-provoking material has been presented. Being driven away by bickering only gives you fewer data points that could support your opinion or possibly change it.
 
Read, but keep the voices in your head away from the keyboard.

[hopfenundmalz]

Spunding is the obvious fix for force carbonation, but what about when you start serving?  I would think that O2 diffusion would happen even after beer is carbonated when impure CO2 is used for serving.

Have you looked into any type of CO2 purifier, since I don't think homebrewers really have access to a legitimate source of high-purity CO2?  Or, do you think a bag in a box / party pig style keg would improve shelf life?

See my reply #116, don't know if this does it.

It has activated charcoal. Reading some stuff on activated charcoal, those say that organic molecules are adsorbed, but not inorganic molecules. So I don’t think it would remove O2. Anyone have other information?

http://www.generalcarbon.com/facts-about-activated-carbon/activated-carbon-faq/

[majorvices]

I’d say that if you live and die in “Stage B” then the degradation will be less noticeable across the life of a keg, especially if kept cold and drank fast.

Also, keep in mind that the fact that most people’s Beer lives in “Stage B” is not an insult, as that stage is more about the gradual flavor loss than anything else. These aren’t the oft quoted “Stage C” flavors of cardboard, vinegar, earthiness, skunkiness, sherry, etc. I want to make that clear. Just because I make a distinction like that doesn’t mean I’m insulting anyone, just offering tips for improvement.

I've been reading through this thread the last few days and thought I would chime in.  I don't really understand the continuing bickering and it bothers me if it drives good guys like Jim away from the forum.

I think we all can agree that oxidation happens and it's something we want to avoid.  How much it matters to you and how much effort you put into it is up to you, but personal preference won't change the fact that oxidation happens.

I also think that Derek is spot on with his statement about Stage B flavors.  We all know that imported beers are hard to get fresh and are frequently oxidized.  They don't taste the same as fresh bottles.  The beers that homebrewers have tried to emulate over the years have often been these oxidized examples.  Look at the amount of crystal malts used in English-style homebrews and then compare that to the grain bill of the original sample.  We're using crystal malt to emulate the oxidized flavors, but those are the flavors that many of us expect and enjoy.  I'm not saying that's bad, it just is.  I've even gone out to find some of the canned imports (I think Urquell but can't recall) that are supposed to have "IT" but frankly if ITs there, my palate doesn't know what it's looking for.  Most of us haven't tasted that, so we're not missing it.

I don't brew often enough these days to have perfectly fresh beer as my brewing goal.  Truth be told, my goal is simply to find time to brew.  I've changed some of my process to eliminate O2 ingress. It wasn't difficult and I believe it to be beneficial.

Do what you like, but there's no reason to sling mud at each other if you choose to take different approaches.

\

You nailed a lot of really important points a nd I never thought about the fact that a lot of homebrewers use crystal malts to emulate oxidized flavors they have found in imported beers. That may have just blown my mind a little...

Obviously oxidation is a serious concern in any brewery environment but if you keep[ the beer cold the effects of o2 are greatly minimized. I have a Maheen bottler (switching to cans next month!!!) and it tests out way over 100ppb depending on the bottle, but if kept cold these beers have a 4 month shelf like which is pretty good IMO - if kept cold!

All the talk about oxidation and ingress is a serious gig, it all happens and it will deteriorate the quality of your beer. There is simply no arguing about that. But even the seal in your corny keg is going to let some ingress of oxygen happen. You can't stop it! Drink your beer fresh and you aren't going to have a problem!

BTW: I tested the o2 coming off my Beverage grade line and got a 12ppb o2 reading. Might have been a leak in the line (it was on the end of a long run about 60 feet from the source or mroe) but never picked up a reading on any of the tanks I got from the welding store. YMMV.

[BrewBama]

I have been thinking about this whole CO2 thing within the context of what I want out of this hobby. While I do not discount that ingress of oxygen thru my plastic lines is important (to somebody), in the list of all important things in my world it will probably fall below my cut line for 2018. While I certainly will purge my kegs because I can easily do that, and I may even be able to pull off a closed transfer and spund, I doubt I am going to seek out and buy instrument grade CO2. It just doesn’t make the cut.

I brew about 12-15 times a year. My goal is to make good, simple beer that showcase ingredients so I patterned my brewery after Cheap and Easy and my process after Beer: Simple. Because sometimes, perfect is the enemy of good, this has me prioritizing my effort and the last thing I need in my world is more “complex”.  I am more focused on malts (fewer = better, ‘Brewing on the Ones’, etc), hops (same as malt), and yeast (using a few go-to strains).  I even decided to add water profiles to Beersmith so I don’t have to guess what to add where. But the super exotic ingredients you can only get if you know someone’s cousin Vinny, the ultra automated hands off push button equipment, and the Uber-university grade laboratory in the dungeon is not for me.

My point is to make enjoyable beer as a hobby. Not obsess over each obscure detail. Humans accidentally discovered brewing and have been doing it without bazillion dollar lab equipment and automatic push button high tech shiny stuff forever. I think I can do it on my deck with a blue cooler and a hydrometer.

I know ‘Mr Beer’, the ‘Alehole’, the ‘Company Man’, and the ‘Auto correct’ guys aren’t going to agree and that’s OK. Cheers.


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[Big Monk]

I have been thinking about this whole CO2 thing within the context of what I want out of this hobby. While I do not discount that ingress of oxygen thru my plastic lines is important (to somebody), in the list of all important things in my world it will probably fall below my cut line for 2018. While I certainly will purge my kegs because I can easily do that, and I may even be able to pull off a closed transfer and spund, I doubt I am going to seek out and buy instrument grade CO2. It just doesn’t make the cut.

I brew about 12-15 times a year. My goal is to make good, simple beer that showcase ingredients so I patterned my brewery after Cheap and Easy and my process after Beer: Simple. Because sometimes, perfect is the enemy of good, this has me prioritizing my effort and the last thing I need in my world is more “complex”.  I am more focused on malts (fewer = better, ‘Brewing on the Ones’, etc), hops (same as malt), and yeast (using a few go-to strains).  I even decided to add water profiles to Beersmith so I don’t have to guess what to add where. But the super exotic ingredients you can only get if you know someone’s cousin Vinny, the ultra automated hands off push button equipment, and the Uber-university grade laboratory in the dungeon is not for me.

My point is to make enjoyable beer as a hobby. Not obsess over each obscure detail. Humans accidentally discovered brewing and have been doing it without bazillion dollar lab equipment and automatic push button high tech shiny stuff forever. I think I can do it on my deck with a blue cooler and a hydrometer.

I know ‘Mr Beer’, the ‘Alehole’, the ‘Company Man’, and the ‘Auto correct’ guys aren’t going to disagree and that’s OK. Cheers.


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To be fair, and to be clear, it’s about more than ingress through lines (amount of O2 from force carbonating/serving) but point taken.

This was meant as an FYI, not a condemnation of anyone and their brewing habits. More info on a topic is better than less.

[BrewBama]

No offense taken at all. You guys presented great information. We each have to evaluate the information for applicability. This ^^ is the result of my evaluation. You guys keep doing your thing — it’s interesting stuff.


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