Author Topic: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important  (Read 3439 times)

Offline Andy Farke

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2018, 03:28:52 PM »
Am I a total outlier here in thinking that this is a bit of a non issue because, as a homebrewer, I have the luxury of drinking my beer quite fresh (kegs are nearly always gone in 2 weeks), so I can relax about what is _primarily_ a shelf life concern (as long as I'm not doing full on LO?)

I don't think you are an outlier here--my sense based on my interpretation of these same results and the above conversation is that for brewers who handle their stuff with at least moderate care, and consume quickly, there isn't any major reason to worry. I might change my mind on that point with some rigorous tasting data (which unfortunately don't exist yet, as near as I can tell), but at least for now the issue is lower down the priority list for me.

(again, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be of concern, just that it would be really nice to see quantitative evidence for a perceptible impact for a typical beer drinker at the _homebrew_ scale under _homebrew_ consumption conditions).
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2018, 03:30:23 PM »
But what about serving?

Well, like I said a few posts back, serving is a necessary evil, but it accounts for a much smaller percentage of the total O2 introduced in ppb. You be way under the 150 ppb mark if you spunded and only used bottle gas to serve.
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Offline Robert

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2018, 03:33:07 PM »
Am I a total outlier here in thinking that this is a bit of a non issue because, as a homebrewer, I have the luxury of drinking my beer quite fresh (kegs are nearly always gone in 2 weeks), so I can relax about what is _primarily_ a shelf life concern (as long as I'm not doing full on LO?)

I don't think you are an outlier here--my sense based on my interpretation of these same results and the above conversation is that for brewers who handle their stuff with at least moderate care, and consume quickly, there isn't any major reason to worry. I might change my mind on that point with some rigorous tasting data (which unfortunately don't exist yet, as near as I can tell), but at least for now the issue is lower down the priority list for me.

(again, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be of concern, just that it would be really nice to see quantitative evidence for a perceptible impact for a typical beer drinker at the _homebrew_ scale under _homebrew_ consumption conditions).
Rigorous tasting data, not rigorous testing data:  One letter makes a big difference in what I would find significant!
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Offline alestateyall

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2018, 04:17:59 PM »
Here is a write up on cold side oxidation taste tests. Not spunding versus force carb but I still find it related enough to post here.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/impact-cold-side-oxidation-new-england-ipa/

Offline The Beerery

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2018, 04:21:52 PM »
If there is anything I have taken away from homebrewers in general when presented with any type of scientific evidence  they scream for blind tasting to prove anything/everything. Even when presented with said things, if it goes against their bias, they discount it.

The moral of the story is accept there is an issue or don't, try new methods or don't. But the science is the science and that doesn't change regardless of bias, stubbornness, comprehension, etc. It is what it is.
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Offline The Beerery

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2018, 04:33:56 PM »
Here is a write up on cold side oxidation taste tests. Not spunding versus force carb but I still find it related enough to post here.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/impact-cold-side-oxidation-new-england-ipa/

I love how everyone seems to be mystified about how NEIPA oxidizes faster than all other beer. It's really no secret but it is a more advanced topic for homebrewers. The short  answer is this:

Oats are very high in fats and lipids and manganese (fenton reactions)
Hops are very high in polyphenols and mangenese
Homebrewers (in general) don't purge properly
Homebrewers (in general) force carbonate



Homebrewers in general are very sloppy when it comes to trub in the fermenter. Yes yeast like some trub and some trace metals for reproduction, but we are talking like 1/100th of what ends up in fermenters.

So you have a lot more then normal fats and lipids, and a metric ton of manganese from the malts and the hops. It gets the slightest trace of o2 and you have an atom bomb of reactions happening. If you are rigorous with trub separation, and transfer to a purged keg and spund you negate nearly all of the reactions. Doing so results in a NEIPA that is brewery fresh for 6+ months.
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Offline Robert

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2018, 04:45:04 PM »
Here is a write up on cold side oxidation taste tests. Not spunding versus force carb but I still find it related enough to post here.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/impact-cold-side-oxidation-new-england-ipa/

And on the other hand here's another one (referenced in that one but I think more on topic here):
http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/post-fermentation-oxidation-pt-1-normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/
EDIT  sorry this link doesn't seem to work. Its reference in the NEIPA article.  Check it out. The link there works!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 04:50:00 PM by Robert »
Rob
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Offline The Beerery

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2018, 04:54:53 PM »
Here is a write up on cold side oxidation taste tests. Not spunding versus force carb but I still find it related enough to post here.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/impact-cold-side-oxidation-new-england-ipa/

And on the other hand here's another one (referenced in that one but I think more on topic here):
http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/post-fermentation-oxidation-pt-1-normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/
EDIT  sorry this link doesn't seem to work. Its reference in the NEIPA article.  Check it out. The link there works!

The problem with this, and basically all homebrew experiments, is that all the beer is oxidized before they even start. But I am not going down that rabbit hole here, not worth it.
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Offline Robert

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2018, 04:57:51 PM »
Here is a write up on cold side oxidation taste tests. Not spunding versus force carb but I still find it related enough to post here.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/impact-cold-side-oxidation-new-england-ipa/

I love how everyone seems to be mystified about how NEIPA oxidizes faster than all other beer. It's really no secret but it is a more advanced topic for homebrewers. The short  answer is this:

Oats are very high in fats and lipids and manganese (fenton reactions)
Hops are very high in polyphenols and mangenese
Homebrewers (in general) don't purge properly
Homebrewers (in general) force carbonate



Homebrewers in general are very sloppy when it comes to trub in the fermenter. Yes yeast like some trub and some trace metals for reproduction, but we are talking like 1/100th of what ends up in fermenters.

So you have a lot more then normal fats and lipids, and a metric ton of manganese from the malts and the hops. It gets the slightest trace of o2 and you have an atom bomb of reactions happening. If you are rigorous with trub separation, and transfer to a purged keg and spund you negate nearly all of the reactions. Doing so results in a NEIPA that is brewery fresh for 6+ months.
So good practices upstream, like careful mashing to avoid lipid extraction and rigorous trub removal, combined with more moderate hop rates and good purging, may be mitigating to some degree the hazards of bottle CO2  in the Pilsner type beers that I brew.  Seems to be working, but of course no triangle tests, just experience guiding my methods.
Rob
Akron, Ohio

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Il meglio è nemico del bene.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Non illegitimes carborundum.

Offline majorvices

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2018, 04:59:55 PM »
We have been getting questions about why people should be interested in CO2 purity and what damaging effects the O2 impurities within bottled CO2 can have on the finished beers of ALL brewers.

We have been working on a blog post for some time and we finally finalized and posted a write-up on it today:

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/carbon-dioxide-purity/

Let's discuss it!

It's great to have a DO meter so that you can test the purity of your Co2. Unfortunately a decent one costs about $8K.... I would gladly test anyone's Co2 for them for a small fee.

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Online klickitat jim

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2018, 05:09:56 PM »
I've been told that commercial breweries, and some home brewers, dry hop by placing the hops in a tank, purging the tank with CO2, and then transferring the beer onto the hops. How do they purge that tank? Wouldn't the sanitizer kind of ruin the hops?

Offline majorvices

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2018, 05:21:56 PM »
I do agree with the poster who says that it probably isn't as important for the homebrewer who keeps his beer cold and drinks it fresh and young.

Offline denny

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 05:22:08 PM »
I don't drink science, I drink beer.  If I like the taste of the beer, that's all the science I need.
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Offline narcout

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 05:35:21 PM »
It's great to have a DO meter so that you can test the purity of your Co2. Unfortunately a decent one costs about $8K.... I would gladly test anyone's Co2 for them for a small fee.

Do you guys test the CO2 you get for the brewery?  If so, what are the typical results?
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Offline majorvices

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Re: CO2 Purity and Why It's So Important
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2018, 05:36:54 PM »
I’ve never been able to detect o2 in our co2. I have not sampled the stuff we get delivered in small cylinders 


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