Author Topic: Rochefort 6 clone  (Read 1472 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2018, 05:32:16 PM »
I should add some of my discussion with the brewer, beyond just posting the picture. Gumar emphasized that the recipe does not scale well for size, especially for fermentation. They have changed the recipe several times to account for changes in equipment. It took them several years to get it right when they switched to conical fermenters. His general recommendation for the grain bill was to up the specialty grains, though I no longer remember the percentage he said to start with. Their fermentation cannot be copied on a homebrew scale. (OK, I say cannot. Somebody will try it!) They bottle on Mondays. They brew two batches each day Tuesday to Thursday, and one on Friday morning. All seven of those batches go into the same fermenter, right on top of each other. That keeps the yeast really happy. They ferment at 24°C, which is 75°F, constant temperature for the entire time. (No cold crash.) The week's batch gets bottled the following Monday, meaning the oldest wort was in the fermenter less than a week.
Remember that this discussion took place in 2006, so things may have changed. Good Luck!

So, basically that means we can't "clone" it exactly.  I guess I don't see that as a big deal, since I don't believe any beer can be cloned.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2018, 05:33:44 PM »
I should add some of my discussion with the brewer, beyond just posting the picture. Gumar emphasized that the recipe does not scale well for size, especially for fermentation. They have changed the recipe several times to account for changes in equipment. It took them several years to get it right when they switched to conical fermenters. His general recommendation for the grain bill was to up the specialty grains, though I no longer remember the percentage he said to start with. Their fermentation cannot be copied on a homebrew scale. (OK, I say cannot. Somebody will try it!) They bottle on Mondays. They brew two batches each day Tuesday to Thursday, and one on Friday morning. All seven of those batches go into the same fermenter, right on top of each other. That keeps the yeast really happy. They ferment at 24°C, which is 75°F, constant temperature for the entire time. (No cold crash.) The week's batch gets bottled the following Monday, meaning the oldest wort was in the fermenter less than a week.
Remember that this discussion took place in 2006, so things may have changed. Good Luck!

So, basically that means we can't "clone" it exactly.  I guess I don't see that as a big deal, since I don't believe any beer can be cloned.

Kind of confirms people's suspicions about 1762 really warming up after a few generations, especially considering the way they are fermenting there.
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Offline SiameseMoose

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2018, 05:53:57 PM »
So this was potentially an incomplete sheet then? I don't see any specialty grains listed, unless they are counting the wheat starch. On the other hand, they may not be using specialty grains in the 6.
I don't think the sheet was incomplete. The conversation was so long ago that I'm struggling to remember precisely. He may have said add, rather than increase specialty grains.

At the time (2006) the big debate on homebrew forums over Belgian beers was whether they used candi sugar rocks or liquid candi syrup. At the time, we (me and the several other homebrewers there) were just happy to put that topic to rest. They used rocks, and the process of addition was rather unique at Rochefort. Storage for all ingredients was on the level above the brewhouse. Rather than carrying the rocks down a flight, they had an opening in the kettle stack on the upper level, and they dropped them in through the stack. Shortly after we got into the brewhouse there was a loud rattling, which we learned was the rocks banging their way down the stack. I wish I had my current camera back then, because I'd love to have a video with that sound.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2018, 06:07:27 PM »
So this was potentially an incomplete sheet then? I don't see any specialty grains listed, unless they are counting the wheat starch. On the other hand, they may not be using specialty grains in the 6.
I don't think the sheet was incomplete. The conversation was so long ago that I'm struggling to remember precisely. He may have said add, rather than increase specialty grains.

At the time (2006) the big debate on homebrew forums over Belgian beers was whether they used candi sugar rocks or liquid candi syrup. At the time, we (me and the several other homebrewers there) were just happy to put that topic to rest. They used rocks, and the process of addition was rather unique at Rochefort. Storage for all ingredients was on the level above the brewhouse. Rather than carrying the rocks down a flight, they had an opening in the kettle stack on the upper level, and they dropped them in through the stack. Shortly after we got into the brewhouse there was a loud rattling, which we learned was the rocks banging their way down the stack. I wish I had my current camera back then, because I'd love to have a video with that sound.

Thanks for the info. Seems like he was giving you advice on adapting the recipe to the homebrew level.

It’s very interesting that they are using a sinamar type product. May have to do a test batch with a scaled version of that recipe.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2018, 04:04:40 AM »
Here's my stab at it, with my own personalized tweaks -- I am anti-Sinamar so I'll use Carafa III, and I love Special B so I'm matching the Carafa 1-for-1 with that.  I have checked every reference, run every number, and I think this recipe will turn out really, really, REALLY close to the real thing:

Dave's Rochefort 6 Clone
5 gallons

Brewhouse efficiency assumed 82%

OG=1.072
FG~1.013
IBU=18
SRM=19.4
ABV=7.7%

8.625 lb Belgian pilsner
1.1 lb flaked wheat
0.25 lb Carafa III
0.25 lb Special B
1.5 lb dark brown candy sugar (reserve for late primary, not for initial kettle)
1.5 oz Hallertau (3.5% alpha, 60 minutes)
1 oz Styrian Golding (4.2% alpha, 5 minutes)
0.1 oz coriander (5 minutes)
Wyeast 1762 Abbey Ale II

Assumed moderate hardness tap water with addition of calcium chloride to hit 60 ppm calcium, and phosphoric or other acid to hit mash pH 5.4.  AFTER the mash, add sufficient baking soda to bring carbonate up to 240 ppm.  (For me and my water, this is 0.75 tsp CaCl2, 2 g dry acid, and 0.67 tsp baking soda -- YMMV).

Mash at 145 deg F for 40 minutes.  Then step up to 165 deg F for 20 minutes (sacch, not mashout).  Reserve the brown sugar until late in primary, do not add in the initial kettle.  Make starter as desired and begin ferment at 68 F, try to hold there a couple days, then on day 3 or 4 allow to free rise into the low 70s.  Also then on day 4, boil up the brown sugar in a little water, cool, and add to primary.  On about day 7, check gravity and rack to secondary for another 3 days, keeping warm (do NOT cold crash at all, keep warm all the time).  Bottle or keg when ready, carbonate on the high end, then keep warm about 73 F for 10 days prior to cellaring.  Cellar for 6 weeks before drinking unless it tastes too awesome before then.

If anyone brews this, please, please, do a side by side vs. the real thing, and let me know how close it comes, I'd love to hear your experiences.

Cheers.
Dave

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2018, 12:23:58 PM »
Here's my stab at it, with my own personalized tweaks -- I am anti-Sinamar so I'll use Carafa III, and I love Special B so I'm matching the Carafa 1-for-1 with that.  I have checked every reference, run every number, and I think this recipe will turn out really, really, REALLY close to the real thing:

Dave's Rochefort 6 Clone
5 gallons

Brewhouse efficiency assumed 82%

OG=1.072
FG~1.013
IBU=18
SRM=19.4
ABV=7.7%

8.625 lb Belgian pilsner
1.1 lb flaked wheat
0.25 lb Carafa III
0.25 lb Special B
1.5 lb dark brown candy sugar (reserve for late primary, not for initial kettle)
1.5 oz Hallertau (3.5% alpha, 60 minutes)
1 oz Styrian Golding (4.2% alpha, 5 minutes)
0.1 oz coriander (5 minutes)
Wyeast 1762 Abbey Ale II

Assumed moderate hardness tap water with addition of calcium chloride to hit 60 ppm calcium, and phosphoric or other acid to hit mash pH 5.4.  AFTER the mash, add sufficient baking soda to bring carbonate up to 240 ppm.  (For me and my water, this is 0.75 tsp CaCl2, 2 g dry acid, and 0.67 tsp baking soda -- YMMV).

Mash at 145 deg F for 40 minutes.  Then step up to 165 deg F for 20 minutes (sacch, not mashout).  Reserve the brown sugar until late in primary, do not add in the initial kettle.  Make starter as desired and begin ferment at 68 F, try to hold there a couple days, then on day 3 or 4 allow to free rise into the low 70s.  Also then on day 4, boil up the brown sugar in a little water, cool, and add to primary.  On about day 7, check gravity and rack to secondary for another 3 days, keeping warm (do NOT cold crash at all, keep warm all the time).  Bottle or keg when ready, carbonate on the high end, then keep warm about 73 F for 10 days prior to cellaring.  Cellar for 6 weeks before drinking unless it tastes too awesome before then.

If anyone brews this, please, please, do a side by side vs. the real thing, and let me know how close it comes, I'd love to hear your experiences.

Cheers.

Interesting take. I'm wondering why the Carafa in light of the fact that the brewday sheet shows a sinamar type product?

Also, bumping up the HCO3 to 240? I'm curious why? Definitely not criticism, just curious about your thought process.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 12:37:25 PM by Big Monk »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2018, 12:55:26 PM »
Interesting take. I'm wondering why the Carafa in light of the fact that the brewday sheet shows a sinamar type product?

Also, bumping up the HCO3 to 240? I'm curious why? Definitely not criticism, just curious about your thought process.

Personal preference not to use Sinamar.  Wanted color from mashed grain instead.  Could also use dehusked black malt.

Source of water information is BLAM.  Do the monks work hard to get carbonates out of their water?  I don't know.  Consider it optional, I may be totally wrong on it.
Dave

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2018, 01:14:31 PM »
Interesting take. I'm wondering why the Carafa in light of the fact that the brewday sheet shows a sinamar type product?

Also, bumping up the HCO3 to 240? I'm curious why? Definitely not criticism, just curious about your thought process.

Personal preference not to use Sinamar.  Wanted color from mashed grain instead.  Could also use dehusked black malt.

Source of water information is BLAM.  Do the monks work hard to get carbonates out of their water?  I don't know.  Consider it optional, I may be totally wrong on it.

I was just thinking that you are going to raise the kettle pH significantly if you do that. It says that they knock it down to 5.2 in the kettle.

I've been running some analysis on the picture posted and I think Ihave a line on reverse engineering the water based on BLAM. I'll post here when I do. It looks more like the Rochefort Boiled profile than what is quote in BLAM. Then you bump the Ca back up to 60 ppm.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 01:18:35 PM by Big Monk »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2018, 02:21:35 PM »
Maybe salt adjustments should be pushed to after the BOIL then?  Baking soda for sure I could wait till after the boil if they want to keep boil pH low.  Thanks for the help.  I feel like we are getting SO close to cloning this sucker.  Now all we need to do is brew and taste to confirm and tweak from there.
Dave

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2018, 02:24:22 PM »
Maybe salt adjustments should be pushed to after the BOIL then?  Baking soda for sure I could wait till after the boil if they want to keep boil pH low.  Thanks for the help.  I feel like we are getting SO close to cloning this sucker.  Now all we need to do is brew and taste to confirm and tweak from there.

What's your source water like? Me personally, I would skip the Baking soda altogether. Hit the right mash pH then add phosphoric to hit 5.0-5.2 in the boil. I'll have some more information today on what I think is their actual brewing water profile.

Also, I think the use of wheat starch is important in some way in lieu of wheat flour or raw wheat as it removes the proteins and other matter from the wheat. Could have an effect on clarity and wort stability although i'm not sure about that yet.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 02:28:19 PM by Big Monk »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2018, 04:10:28 PM »
What's your source water like? Me personally, I would skip the Baking soda altogether. Hit the right mash pH then add phosphoric to hit 5.0-5.2 in the boil. I'll have some more information today on what I think is their actual brewing water profile.

Also, I think the use of wheat starch is important in some way in lieu of wheat flour or raw wheat as it removes the proteins and other matter from the wheat. Could have an effect on clarity and wort stability although i'm not sure about that yet.

My water is treated directly from Lake Michigan, which is moderately hard, overall pretty neutral.  Old specs provided by yours truly are actually available anytime on the Green Bay Rackers website:

https://www.rackers.org/local-water-quality/

I guess I'm not sure of all the exact differences between flaked wheat versus "wheat starch" versus anything else.  I believe in this low percentage, it probably doesn't much matter which version you use.  But I could be wrong too.  A side-by-side xbmt would be needed to know for sure.

I'll look forward to your additional information, thanks much.
Dave

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2018, 04:23:23 PM »
For comparison, this was my Roach Four recipe: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26158.msg338506.msg#338506

Was my first low oxygen beer. Had some sulphur in the nose, but basically I'd stick to the same recipe. With a bit more lodo experience I'm sure it would be fantastic.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2018, 12:46:11 AM »
What's your source water like? Me personally, I would skip the Baking soda altogether. Hit the right mash pH then add phosphoric to hit 5.0-5.2 in the boil. I'll have some more information today on what I think is their actual brewing water profile.

Also, I think the use of wheat starch is important in some way in lieu of wheat flour or raw wheat as it removes the proteins and other matter from the wheat. Could have an effect on clarity and wort stability although i'm not sure about that yet.

My water is treated directly from Lake Michigan, which is moderately hard, overall pretty neutral.  Old specs provided by yours truly are actually available anytime on the Green Bay Rackers website:

https://www.rackers.org/local-water-quality/

I guess I'm not sure of all the exact differences between flaked wheat versus "wheat starch" versus anything else.  I believe in this low percentage, it probably doesn't much matter which version you use.  But I could be wrong too.  A side-by-side xbmt would be needed to know for sure.

I'll look forward to your additional information, thanks much.

Wheat starch has all the protein and other matter removed. It’s a colorless powder.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2018, 01:44:48 AM »
Wheat starch has all the protein and other matter removed. It’s a colorless powder.

Well that kind of takes all the fun out it!  ;)
Dave

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Rochefort 6 clone
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2018, 02:11:25 AM »
Wheat starch has all the protein and other matter removed. It’s a colorless powder.

Well that kind of takes all the fun out it!  ;)

If you think like a commercial brewer, you’d be gaining extract and reducing absorption.
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