Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Bru'n Water pH off  (Read 7737 times)

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 06:11:09 pm »
I've long reported: wort pH varies during the mashing period. The other thing that is curious (in my experience), is that the pH tends to drift toward a room-temp pH of about 5.4 during the mash. If the pH is initially higher than 5.4, it tends to fall and if initially lower, it tends to rise.  I can't explain it, but it has proven typical in my experience.
Brewed a APA yeasterday. Hit the predicted value of 5.30 on the nose. Later, it came in at 5.38 before mashout.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6051
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 06:37:46 pm »
I've long reported: wort pH varies during the mashing period. The other thing that is curious (in my experience), is that the pH tends to drift toward a room-temp pH of about 5.4 during the mash. If the pH is initially higher than 5.4, it tends to fall and if initially lower, it tends to rise.  I can't explain it, but it has proven typical in my experience.

This is my theory: Mash WANTS to become wort and ultimately beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 06:43:19 pm »
I've long reported: wort pH varies during the mashing period. The other thing that is curious (in my experience), is that the pH tends to drift toward a room-temp pH of about 5.4 during the mash. If the pH is initially higher than 5.4, it tends to fall and if initially lower, it tends to rise.  I can't explain it, but it has proven typical in my experience.

This is my theory: Mash WANTS to become wort and ultimately beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"...and wants us to be happy."  :)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2018, 07:48:01 pm »
Second batch using Bru'n Water  today.  Both 100% Weyermann Pilsner and Jever (boiled) profile.  Bru'n Water  predicts pH 5.40, both mashes just under 5.3.  What can I do to dial this in in the future?

This appears to have been merely a matter of when the sample was pulled.  Waited an extra 15 minutes today and pH was within 0.01 of prediction.
Belated but thought I'd report: this past weekend I waited 15 min to pull sample again.  Bru'n Water predicted pH 5.39.  Measured ph: 5.39!
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline JT

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1556
  • Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH
    • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2018, 07:54:06 pm »
I've always seemed to chase mash pH, and always hit low vs. prediction.  This past weekend I switch to distilled from RO, but the result was the same.  Prediction was 5.52, I measured 5.33.  Sample taken 30 min into mash. 


  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."


Offline zwiller

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2018, 03:03:27 pm »
Tons of variables here including electrode age, last calibration, presence of starch in sample, if it is leap year...  My 2nd meter was used exclusively to gauge accuracy to BNW and it was accurate enough I forgo checking mash/sparge anymore.  3rd meter was used exclusively for pH measurements for mostly cold side (no mash) and lasted ALOT longer... 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline Richard

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1012
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2018, 03:16:47 pm »
I bought some 88% lactic acid a few months ago, and keep it in the fridge. My pH was right on the Bru'n Water predictions at first, but the last couple of batches have been coming in a bit high (ex. 5.54 actual versus 5.40 target). Could the lactic acid be degrading and not as strong as it was at first, or is it more likely that my water has changed a bit? The difference has been enough to measure but not enough for me to want adjust during mash yet. I think next time I will add a bit more lactic than Bru'nWater suggests just to be safe, but it would be nice to know if I can expect this trend to continue if the acid is degrading.
Original Gravity - that would be Newton's

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2018, 04:24:01 pm »
I bought some 88% lactic acid a few months ago, and keep it in the fridge. My pH was right on the Bru'n Water predictions at first, but the last couple of batches have been coming in a bit high (ex. 5.54 actual versus 5.40 target). Could the lactic acid be degrading and not as strong as it was at first, or is it more likely that my water has changed a bit? The difference has been enough to measure but not enough for me to want adjust during mash yet. I think next time I will add a bit more lactic than Bru'nWater suggests just to be safe, but it would be nice to know if I can expect this trend to continue if the acid is degrading.
As far as I know lactic acid is stable, I don't even refrigerate it.  But I know water supplies definitely change significantly seasonally and sometimes on even shorter timescales.  So a water report is maybe worse than a broken watch, only right once -- when the test was made!  But it seems to be keeping you in the ballpark.  You could either get a test kit and check your water from too me to time, or just see if you can learn empirically to adjust your acid additions.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline tommymorris

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3869
Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2018, 05:00:49 pm »
My readings can be sporadic. On a couple of occasions lately, I have noticed my reading didn’t match predictions. I then check the meter in my 7 pH solution and it is off there, too. I recalibrate and then the wort reading is on target.

I don’t know if I do something wrong in calibration or if my meter is flaky.  I just know I am not inspired with confidence about the measurements. 

I am planning to stop taking readings soon. I am just using up my calibration fluids. I never try to correct the mash pH after a reading. I just record that data in my log and don’t do anything with it. I think Brunwater is right all the time (even when my measurement skills are lacking and I can’t prove it.) So, why bother?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 05:05:28 pm by alestateyall »

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2018, 05:06:30 pm »
Here's a thought:  One thing that does degrade is calibration solutions.  They have a very short shelf life once opened, so I get the "single serving" sachets.  If your solution is stale, that could be a problem.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline mabrungard

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2902
  • Water matters!
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2018, 06:42:28 pm »
The 4 and 7 solutions have much more stability and longevity than the 10 solution. 10 degrades very quickly. Fortunately, there is no reason to calibrate in the 10 range when dealing with brewing.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://www.brunwater.com/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2018, 06:48:42 pm »
The 4 and 7 solutions have much more stability and longevity than the 10 solution. 10 degrades very quickly. Fortunately, there is no reason to calibrate in the 10 range when dealing with brewing.
Maybe shelf life I've seen was erring on the side of the 10.  What is the shelf life of 4 and 7 Martin? I probably still will do well with the sachets -- I only calibrate once a month, just because the manual says I should, but with just a couple dozen readings on non-extreme substances (beer and wort) in that time I figure even that's an abundance of caution.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline BitterItDown

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 59
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2018, 07:04:53 pm »
It may simply be attributed to the error in the SRM malt model implemented in the Brunwater spreadsheet.  What do other spreadsheets predict?

Offline JT

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1556
  • Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH
    • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2018, 07:12:35 pm »
It may simply be attributed to the error in the SRM malt model implemented in the Brunwater spreadsheet.  What do other spreadsheets predict?
I've not messed with other sheets.  I've changed probes many times, changed meters, changed calibration solutions (now use satchels), acids (88 lactic to acid malt), water (tap, RO,  distilled). 
Always calibrate before measuring at room temp.  Beats me!  But I'm generally measuring 2 tenths lower than prediction. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."


Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Bru'n Water pH off
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 07:16:17 pm »
It may simply be attributed to the error in the SRM malt model implemented in the Brunwater spreadsheet.  What do other spreadsheets predict?
I've not messed with other sheets.  I've changed probes many times, changed meters, changed calibration solutions (now use satchels), acids (88 lactic to acid malt), water (tap, RO,  distilled). 
Always calibrate before measuring at room temp.  Beats me!  But I'm generally measuring 2 tenths lower than prediction. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."


So you have what,  maybe precision, maybe not accuracy, but at least consistency.  So you have a reliable way of correlating your water treatment program with the resulting beer quality.   You're all done here.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.