[JT]

It may simply be attributed to the error in the SRM malt model implemented in the Brunwater spreadsheet.  What do other spreadsheets predict?

I've not messed with other sheets.  I've changed probes many times, changed meters, changed calibration solutions (now use satchels), acids (88 lactic to acid malt), water (tap, RO,  distilled). 
Always calibrate before measuring at room temp.  Beats me!  But I'm generally measuring 2 tenths lower than prediction. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

So you have what,  maybe precision, maybe not accuracy, but at least consistency.  So you have a reliable way of correlating your water treatment program with the resulting beer quality.   You're all done here.

Aye, but it bugs the OCD part of my brain.
To add to the pointlessness of my endeavor, the beer tastes fine! 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

[Robert]

^^^^
Oh I hear you.  I could never take my own advice here,  OCD brain wants to suss it out.  But  you could satisfy that by ignoring the software and literature and compile endless tables correlating your own freefloating readings with water parameters and results.  A spreadsheet that is completely fitted to your little microuniverse!  And then one day your pH meter will act normal.

EDIT  If we could all give up our OCD, we'd realize BW is so reliable, so well backed up by empirical data, that we should just formulate our recipes with it and leave our meters on the shelf, blissfully freed from the artifacts of our measurement methods. But I can't.

[BitterItDown]

Water spreadsheet writers may be able to incorporate advanced statistical techniques and data gathering to enhance results.  (In addition to the standard implementation consisting of AJDelange water calculations combined with the Kai Troester color models.)

[The Beerery]

Did you switch base malt? Weyermann is notoriously in the 5.9 range, which if I remember correctly BW uses like 5.75 as the pils pH. 


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[Robert]

Did you switch base malt? Weyermann is notoriously in the 5.9 range, which if I remember correctly BW uses like 5.75 as the pils pH. 


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I use Weyermann Pilsner, and I'm  hitting exactly the pH Bru'n Water is predicting (now I've got the sampling issue ironed out. )  That surprised me but I won't complain.  I do wonder how it's working.

[JT]

Did you switch base malt? Weyermann is notoriously in the 5.9 range, which if I remember correctly BW uses like 5.75 as the pils pH. 


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I'm all Weyermann malt for German beers and use it in Belgian/Trappist styles too.

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

[mabrungard]

Always calibrate before measuring at room temp.  Beats me!  But I'm generally measuring 2 tenths lower than prediction. 

That suggests that either that batch of base malt is more acidic (its happened) or the alkalinity of your water is lower than assumed.

[zwiller]

EDIT  If we could all give up our OCD, we'd realize BW is so reliable, so well backed up by empirical data, that we should just formulate our recipes with it and leave our meters on the shelf, blissfully freed from the artifacts of our measurement methods. But I can't.

 
Just stop using it in the mash.  While mash pH sets up everything it is FAR from set and forget.  The other phases of the brewing process have significant impact on pH.  The first thing I did when I went to nearly all cold side measurements was to compare my final pH from my favorite stuff.  I am fanatical about pH and was way off...  If you've never done this, do it.  I doubt you will OCD about being off .1 on a mash reading anymore. 

[mabrungard]

The first thing I did when I went to nearly all cold side measurements was to compare my final pH from my favorite stuff.  I am fanatical about pH and was way off... 

I haven't studied that in my favorite commercial examples. What do you typically find? Homebrew pHs are higher or lower than commercial examples?

[klickitat jim]

The first thing I did when I went to nearly all cold side measurements was to compare my final pH from my favorite stuff.  I am fanatical about pH and was way off... 

I haven't studied that in my favorite commercial examples. What do you typically find? Homebrew pHs are higher or lower than commercial examples?

Martin,

Some time ago, when I was still repitching slurry, (pale lagers and APA) I measured pH on degassed SNPA and a full strength Coors. I don't remember the numbers, never wrote it down, but if memory serves they were in the 4.3 Coors, 4.5 SNPA range. My repitched beers were always higher. I couldn't figure out why. I tried adding acid to the boil to 5ph, but that did nothing to the final beer pH. When I switched from repitch slurry to 1 smack pack oxygenated active 1200ml starters that problem went away. It might be correlation rather than causation, but I suspect that over pitching may effect proper final beer pH. I was most likely over pitching when using slurry. More is better, right?

[zwiller]

The first thing I did when I went to nearly all cold side measurements was to compare my final pH from my favorite stuff.  I am fanatical about pH and was way off... 

I haven't studied that in my favorite commercial examples. What do you typically find? Homebrew pHs are higher or lower than commercial examples?

Homebrew pH higher.  Sparge pH control is a biggie.  Unless brewed with RO/distilled or acidified sparge you are likely not even in the ballpark. 

[Robert]

I repitch pale lagers for at least 15 generations (34/70) and they always finish at pH 4.3, first to last. This has been the case with both treated city water and water built from RO.   Variation in mash and wort pH seems to bear no relation to this consistent final beer pH. MBAA has listed 3.8-4.7 as acceptable pH range for US lager beers, 4.2 average.

[JT]

EDIT  If we could all give up our OCD, we'd realize BW is so reliable, so well backed up by empirical data, that we should just formulate our recipes with it and leave our meters on the shelf, blissfully freed from the artifacts of our measurement methods. But I can't.

 
Just stop using it in the mash.  While mash pH sets up everything it is FAR from set and forget.  The other phases of the brewing process have significant impact on pH.  The first thing I did when I went to nearly all cold side measurements was to compare my final pH from my favorite stuff.  I am fanatical about pH and was way off...  If you've never done this, do it.  I doubt you will OCD about being off .1 on a mash reading anymore. 

I've only measured cold side pH a couple times. My beers are almost exclusively made from distilled or RO water though, so unless additional acid is required to get to commercial pH levels, they shouldn't have any trouble lowering the pH while they're making my beer.  If I recall it was below 4.6 when I measured.  Will make a point to test the Helles and Pils I have fermenting now. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

[zwiller]

I repitch pale lagers for at least 15 generations (34/70) and they always finish at pH 4.3, first to last. This has been the case with both treated city water and water built from RO.   Variation in mash and wort pH seems to bear no relation to this consistent final beer pH. MBAA has listed 3.8-4.7 as acceptable pH range for US lager beers, 4.2 average.

My electrode failed before I could test any lagers but that is surprising to me since I generally think lager yeast is a low acid producer.  JT brought it up but basically I am of the opinion that additional acid is typically required to get that low.  There are a few strains that "work" but many do not.  Chico is well known for this and the reason why SN acidifies all their water and mash at 5.1. 

[Robert]

I repitch pale lagers for at least 15 generations (34/70) and they always finish at pH 4.3, first to last. This has been the case with both treated city water and water built from RO.   Variation in mash and wort pH seems to bear no relation to this consistent final beer pH. MBAA has listed 3.8-4.7 as acceptable pH range for US lager beers, 4.2 average.

My electrode failed before I could test any lagers but that is surprising to me since I generally think lager yeast is a low acid producer.  JT brought it up but basically I am of the opinion that additional acid is typically required to get that low.  There are a few strains that "work" but many do not.  Chico is well known for this and the reason why SN acidifies all their water and mash at 5.1.

What leads you to this conclusion about lager yeast?  Can you cite any literature?  This runs counter to anything I've read or experienced.  And acidifying water affects mash and wort pH, again, fermentation is a separate system.