[kramerog]

I went to the LBHS and didn't find the lager yeasts I wanted for a Marzen and a Bock.  So I am now taking a flyer on Denny's 50.  What is the real low end of the  fermentation temp range for Denny's 50 for a fake lager?

[denny]

Probably 55-57F.  What kind of lager are you making?

[kramerog]

Didn't see your reply Denny.  I am making a Marzen and a Dunkles Bock. 

Quick synopsis: 54 F probably too cold, 57 F no problem.  I cooled wort to 60 F, and overnight it cooled to 54 F.  In the morning and afternoon there was almost no activity. Indeed in the morning, the fermentation lock was still registering a vacuum from the overnight cool. I bumped up temp to 57F in later afternoon and next morning there was a vigorous fermentation.

[denny]

Didn't see your reply Denny.  I am making a Marzen and a Dunkles Bock. 

Quick synopsis: 54 F probably too cold, 57 F no problem.  I cooled wort to 60 F, and overnight it cooled to 54 F.  In the morning and afternoon there was almost no activity. Indeed in the morning, the fermentation lock was still registering a vacuum from the overnight cool. I bumped up temp to 57F in later afternoon and next morning there was a vigorous fermentation.

Thaks for the update.  Activity could be from the temp jump, or it could just be the extra time.  Either way, glad to hear it's underway.

[TANSTAAFB]

Keep us posted, after my own warm fermented lager experiments, exBeeriments, conversation over on HBT https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/592169/
and info coming out that many of the yeastie beasties that we think of as lager yeasts actually have more "ale" DNA I'm really curious to see the results of yeast experiments and temp across the spectrum!

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[denny]

Keep us posted, after my own warm fermented lager experiments, exBeeriments, conversation over on HBT https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/592169/
and info coming out that many of the yeastie beasties that we think of as lager yeasts actually have more "ale" DNA I'm really curious to see the results of yeast experiments and temp across the spectrum!

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So, if you use an ale yeast, and ferment it at higher than normal lager temps, what makes it a lager?

[The Beerery]

Keep us posted, after my own warm fermented lager experiments, exBeeriments, conversation over on HBT https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/592169/
and info coming out that many of the yeastie beasties that we think of as lager yeasts actually have more "ale" DNA I'm really curious to see the results of yeast experiments and temp across the spectrum!

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So, if you use an ale yeast, and ferment it at higher than normal lager temps, what makes it a lager?

Holy Jesus! Did we finally just agree! I am playing the lottery tonight. 

[klickitat jim]

Putting all the recent info together, such as some lager yeast might be S Cerevisiae; such as fermenting under pressure at ale temps; maybe tasting/smelling/looking like a lager makes it a lager?

[denny]

Putting all the recent info together, such as some lager yeast might be S Cerevisiae; such as fermenting under pressure at ale temps; maybe tasting/smelling/looking like a lager makes it a lager?

Yeah, that's a good metric, but then we have to define that!  An keep in mind that lager yeasts appear to have DNA of both cerevisiae and bayunus/pastorianus.  So, technically a lager yeast has an ale yeast component while an ale yeast doesn't have a lager yeast component.  As far as I understand.

[klickitat jim]

That works for me

[ynotbrusum]

In terms of performance, I thought only lager yeasts could metabolize maltotriose, no?  And I don't know where that puts hybrid yeasts like Kolsch-style yeast?

[TANSTAAFB]

Holy sh!tsnacks this is getting complicated! I had not even thought about it in quite those terms...if a yeast has historically been used to produce what have been universally (?) recognized as lagers, e.g., the Weihenstephan strain, but after DNA sequencing we find that it is actually more of an ale strain, does that actually change the practical use of the strain to create lager beers? And does it matter if a beer fermented at 50°F and a beer fermented at 65°F are unable to be differentiated in a sensory test? What if I use a lager recipe and ferment with Cry Havoc or Denny's Favorite 50 at low temps and get great lager-like results?

All that is to say I'm a bit of a pragmatist. If it looks like a lager, and it tastes like a lager, then it's a freakin lager!

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[Robert]

Putting all the recent info together, such as some lager yeast might be S Cerevisiae; such as fermenting under pressure at ale temps; maybe tasting/smelling/looking like a lager makes it a lager?

Yeah, that's a good metric, but then we have to define that!  An keep in mind that lager yeasts appear to have DNA of both cerevisiae and bayunus/pastorianus.  So, technically a lager yeast has an ale yeast component while an ale yeast doesn't have a lager yeast component.  As far as I understand.

Okay here's what you guys have got me musing about:

You can't tell for sure if a dog will bite by looking at his genetic heritage (so far as I know.)

 Whatever the share of material from whatever lineage, might not a given strain just turn out to ferment more cleanly than expected, or be more temperature tolerant than expected, and so on? It's the surprising but welcome traits that have caused brewers to select and propagate particular yeasts over the centuries, isn't it?  Ever more detailed genetic classification may just lead to a barrel of red herrings. If it makes beer you like in a process you find practical, use it.

(Maybe they're all individuals, like people!  Stop being yeastist! )

Maybe the very terms "ale" and "lager" ARE best taken as just shorthand conveniently describing the resulting beer.  The unscientific drinker can order an ale or a lager and expect to get a beer to his/her taste without caring how it was made. 

Sorry for rambling.

EDIT Oh, and do ale and lager really cut it?  I mean Kölsch is called "obergäriges Lagerbier," top fermenting lager bier... oh my head...

[denny]

Holy sh!tsnacks this is getting complicated! I had not even thought about it in quite those terms...if a yeast has historically been used to produce what have been universally (?) recognized as lagers, e.g., the Weihenstephan strain, but after DNA sequencing we find that it is actually more of an ale strain, does that actually change the practical use of the strain to create lager beers? And does it matter if a beer fermented at 50°F and a beer fermented at 65°F are unable to be differentiated in a sensory test? What if I use a lager recipe and ferment with Cry Havoc or Denny's Favorite 50 at low temps and get great lager-like results?

All that is to say I'm a bit of a pragmatist. If it looks like a lager, and it tastes like a lager, then it's a freakin lager!

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That's how I look at it.  A rose by any other name...

[BrewBama]

I recall Charlie P saying he uses the same strain gifted to him 20+ yrs ago for everything he brews — Ales and Lagers. Come to find out it is a Budweiser yeast.


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