Author Topic: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?  (Read 1924 times)

Offline Big Monk

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Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« on: January 31, 2018, 03:12:00 PM »
Friend of our forum and longtime collaborator Bilsch wrote up a nice post detailing a bottle storage sensory experiment he did recently. Pretty cool stuff:

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/bottle-cap-oxygen-ingress-real/
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2018, 04:31:28 PM »
Smells like confirmation bias.
Dave

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 04:35:57 PM »
Smells like confirmation bias.

I think it reflects the transition in our beers (low oxygen beers) from Stage A to Stage B flavors more than anything. Again, YMMV in matters concerning oxidation, but we just wanted to get the results out there.

Bilsch has experience on both sides of the discussion and with this beer in particular.

Cap ingress isn't debatable, but people's perception of the effects are. So this may not apply to your sensory analysis but the procedure was interesting, especially for people like myself who are bottlers AND low oxygen brewers. The concept of cap ingress applies to any bottler though.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:38:15 PM by Big Monk »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 05:01:00 PM »
The quality and potential validity of the experiment is rendered entirely meaningless when I see statements like this:

"difficult to drink and so was poured down the drain."
Dave

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2018, 05:08:24 PM »
The quality and potential validity of the experiment is rendered entirely meaningless when I see statements like this:

"difficult to drink and so was poured down the drain."

Bilsch's personal preference about the quality of beer he decides he wants to drink is a decision he made based on his own sensory analysis of a known recipe of his. Again, we shouldn't have to make this explicit every time we post something but YMMV. It was a cool experiment whether you care for the subjective results or not.

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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 05:10:21 PM »
That's fair, I'll agree that the concept of the experiment was cool.
Dave

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2018, 05:12:01 PM »
That's fair, I'll agree that the concept of the experiment was cool.

I like nothing more than to agree to disagree with you Dave.  ;)
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 05:25:15 PM »
Jokes first:


LO Brewers lands on moon, declares space only suitable location for maintaining beer freshness.

I like seeing the beers against a white background, it's one thing I think should be done more when comparing color/clarity.

This is an interesting experiment, but it's a bit interesting seeing this put side by side against your more rigorously tested posts. I hear the Brulosophy guys get some flak for how they do things, which brings this into starker contrast.

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 05:40:30 PM »
Jokes first:


LO Brewers lands on moon, declares space only suitable location for maintaining beer freshness.

I like seeing the beers against a white background, it's one thing I think should be done more when comparing color/clarity.

This is an interesting experiment, but it's a bit interesting seeing this put side by side against your more rigorously tested posts. I hear the Brulosophy guys get some flak for how they do things, which brings this into starker contrast.

I think the experiment was controlled well. Same batch, same initial packaging, same storage temperature, etc. You can't expect to agree totally with someone's subjective opinion of their own beer, but that aside, this was a solidly controlled and executed experiment.
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Offline The Beerery

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 05:51:02 PM »
Not to mention it falls much in line with the linked post in the blog article with sensory and sulfite/DO tests we did,  and the actual science.
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Offline Andy Farke

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 05:58:25 PM »
I think the experiment was controlled well. Same batch, same initial packaging, same storage temperature, etc. You can't expect to agree totally with someone's subjective opinion of their own beer, but that aside, this was a solidly controlled and executed experiment.

This was impressively well controlled, up to the point of the tasting. Was the taster aware of the identity of each sample (i.e., to what extent was confirmation bias a potential factor)? Was only one tasting conducted? Etc.
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2018, 06:03:44 PM »
I think the experiment was controlled well. Same batch, same initial packaging, same storage temperature, etc. You can't expect to agree totally with someone's subjective opinion of their own beer, but that aside, this was a solidly controlled and executed experiment.

Not a lot of information on the production methods used to make the beer. I understand there are standard tenets of LODO, but there's certainly variation in methods. If this was posted by a non-LODO brewer, I'd expect to hear a lot of criticism on how the beer was made, the recipe, etc. My comments are more on the reporting, sorry if that wasn't clear. Guess I should post and try to listen to "More Perfect" at the same time. Not trying to poke the bear, but just a thought on protecting your brand quality.

I'm not going to debate the actual science, that seems pretty clear. The significance and the takeaway is up to the reader as you've mentioned. I prefer the information on spunding/oxidation prevention that has more practical applications for my brewing.

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2018, 06:18:53 PM »
I think the experiment was controlled well. Same batch, same initial packaging, same storage temperature, etc. You can't expect to agree totally with someone's subjective opinion of their own beer, but that aside, this was a solidly controlled and executed experiment.

This was impressively well controlled, up to the point of the tasting. Was the taster aware of the identity of each sample (i.e., to what extent was confirmation bias a potential factor)? Was only one tasting conducted? Etc.

This is a single data point. This is not intended as a sweeping commentary on all bottled beer. It is a person whose opinion and palate we trust saying that they noticed differences between the sample beers. Take that for what it's worth. We have experienced similar degradation over time in bottle spunded beers, so the rigor of the control in Bilsch's experiment added another layer of thought to our own empirical observations. YMMV.

Again, "forest for the trees..." here. It was a cool, but not definitive, experiment to test a hypothesis on extending shelf life in our setting.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 06:22:54 PM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2018, 07:17:24 PM »
I'd like to see this test done again but beer tested by a cap piercing dissolved O2 tester, a really good one.

As far as the write-up goes, I didn't see anything about -unless you do it this way, your beer will totally suck- so... KUDOS!

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2018, 07:48:37 PM »
The trick of putting the bottles in a purged keg might come in handy for competitions. It could save having to rebrew for NHC if I bottled all at once, for some reason.
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