Author Topic: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?  (Read 1374 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2018, 03:46:15 PM »
^^^^
3 month old Weihenstephan I rarely see! Always older. But some German breweries seem to have better packaging or process than others.  For several years now I have refused to buy anything from the Paulaner/Hacker-Pscorr grouping. No matter how fresh the date code may suggest it is, it has all been heavily oxidized.  Deep into stage C.  What gives?
Rob
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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2018, 04:21:51 PM »
^^^^
3 month old Weihenstephan I rarely see! Always older. But some German breweries seem to have better packaging or process than others.  For several years now I have refused to buy anything from the Paulaner/Hacker-Pscorr grouping. No matter how fresh the date code may suggest it is, it has all been heavily oxidized.  Deep into stage C.  What gives?

For every passionate beer distributor, there are dozens to whom beer is purely product. This stark difference between those who handle and stock the beer you love explains it. Shelf life is based on the assumption of cold storage and proper handling. You can imagine that the temperature variation beer experiences alone staling much of the product out there.
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Offline Richard

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2018, 04:32:44 PM »
The neat thing about this is , believing and science don’t need to coincide for it to happen. A little google work will show you all the studies of cap ingress and beer staling limits.  Gas laws are gas laws.  Staling limits are staling limits.  After that it’s simple math for when they coincide.
A little googling turned up this reference (http://www.thebruery.com/careful-cellaring-part-2-the-importance-of-temperature/) to a graph from Bamforth's 2004 book (Beer:Health and Nutrition):


Did you have some other reference in mind? Would you care to share it?

To be clear: I accept that oxygen will get into the bottle, and I accept that oxygen will eventually cause staling. I also accept that the rate of chemical reactions is  a function of temperature.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 04:54:05 PM by Richard »

Offline Robert

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2018, 04:32:53 PM »
^^^^
3 month old Weihenstephan I rarely see! Always older. But some German breweries seem to have better packaging or process than others.  For several years now I have refused to buy anything from the Paulaner/Hacker-Pscorr grouping. No matter how fresh the date code may suggest it is, it has all been heavily oxidized.  Deep into stage C.  What gives?

For every passionate beer distributor, there are dozens to whom beer is purely product. This stark difference between those who handle and stock the beer you love explains it. Shelf life is based on the assumption of cold storage and proper handling. You can imagine that the temperature variation beer experiences alone staling much of the product out there.
Yep, there are about 5 distributors serving the local market.  I'll have to carefully check which ones handle what breweries (I'll just ask the beer and wine steward at the supermarket. He's also a Cicerone, so should already be aware of  the problem.)  I wouldn't be surprised if I could narrow it down to one distributor and just beware of their goods.  Years ago Paulaner was a safe bet.
Rob
Akron, Ohio

"There is always a well-known solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong."  -- Mencken

Il meglio è nemico del bene.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Non illegitimes carborundum.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2018, 04:39:42 PM »
There were some nice slides in Ken Grossman’s 2009 keynote speach when he was talking about changing from twist off to pry off. That file is no longer up.

Some info as to not all cap materials being equal.
http://brookstonbeerbulletin.com/sierra-nevadas-new-pry-off-cap/
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Online Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2018, 04:55:37 PM »
The neat thing about this is , believing and science don’t need to coincide for it to happen. A little google work will show you all the studies of cap ingress and beer staling limits.  Gas laws are gas laws.  Staling limits are staling limits.  After that it’s simple math for when they coincide.
A little googling turned up this reference (http://www.thebruery.com/careful-cellaring-part-2-the-importance-of-temperature/) to a graph from Bamforth's 2004 book (Beer:Health and Nutrition):


Did you have some other reference in mind? Would you care to share it?

We need to keep in mind here that we are not talking about zero to wet cardboard here. We need to move this dialogue away from the insinuation that everyone’s beer is displaying “Stage C”, stereotypical oxidation flavors. We are not interested in those flavors because very few people are getting to that stage unless they seriously mishandle their beers.

We are much more interested in the more nuanced flavor hits you take from transitioning from “Stage A” brewery fresh flavors to the onset of “Stage B” flavors, i.e. onset of hop aroma and flavor loss, cloyingly sweet malt flavor, etc. I have it happen to me reliably when a bottle spunded batch starts to run out.

So the graph you linked is nice, but it just tells us the obvious: you need to beat the hell out of a beer to get it to start noticably staling, i.e. “Stage C”.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.”   Aristotle

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2018, 05:06:07 PM »
Arguments about staleness, in an odd twist of irony, seemingly never get old. We need to find a way to capture that so we can add it to our beer.

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2018, 05:14:36 PM »
Arguments about staleness, in an odd twist of irony, seemingly never get old. We need to find a way to capture that so we can add it to our beer.

I'd say discussion is more an apt term. If you call something an argument for long enough it will eventually become one.  ;)

 
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.”   Aristotle

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2018, 05:22:16 PM »
Arguments about staleness, in an odd twist of irony, seemingly never get old. We need to find a way to capture that so we can add it to our beer.

I'd say discussion is more an apt term. If you call something an argument for long enough it will eventually become one.  ;)
Here's the evidence I am using to support my use of the word "Argument"

Offline Richard

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2018, 05:29:51 PM »
So the graph you linked is nice, but it just tells us the obvious: you need to beat the hell out of a beer to get it to start noticably staling, i.e. “Stage C”.

I guess I just don't understand what you are saying. If it isn't noticeable, then who cares?

Online Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2018, 05:30:32 PM »
Arguments about staleness, in an odd twist of irony, seemingly never get old. We need to find a way to capture that so we can add it to our beer.

I'd say discussion is more an apt term. If you call something an argument for long enough it will eventually become one.  ;)
Here's the evidence I am using to support my use of the word "Argument"


I'll see your definition, and raise you:

dis·cus·sion
dəˈskəSH(ə)n
noun
the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

 ;D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 05:34:08 PM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.”   Aristotle

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Online Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2018, 05:33:35 PM »
So the graph you linked is nice, but it just tells us the obvious: you need to beat the hell out of a beer to get it to start noticably staling, i.e. “Stage C”.

I guess I just don't understand what you are saying. If it isn't noticeable, then who cares?

What i'm saying is this: Bamforth is talking about stereotype oxidation flavors: cardboard, skunk, etc. What we are typical talking about is subtle flavor loss experienced by everyone, even us, i.e. loss of hop aroma and flavor, malt profile changes, etc.

The breakdown here is when people think we are telling them that they are making wet cardboard, skunked vinegar beer, which we are most certainly not. Everyone here, especially those viewing and responding to our posts is savvy enough to know that there is more nuance and subtlety involved.

I like discussion and don't want people on the defensive. That doesn't help anyone. With that said, everyone, including us, needs to be honest about faults and interested in fixing them and improving. Or maybe they don't. Far be it for from me to tell anyone how they should brew or what they should be interested in. YMMV, but more information is always better than less (IMO).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 05:39:05 PM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.”   Aristotle

“To my big brother George. The richest man in town.” Harry Bailey

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2018, 05:39:57 PM »
So the graph you linked is nice, but it just tells us the obvious: you need to beat the hell out of a beer to get it to start noticably staling, i.e. “Stage C”.

I guess I just don't understand what you are saying. If it isn't noticeable, then who cares?

What i'm saying is this: Bamforth is talking about stereotype oxidation flavors: cardboard, skunk, etc. What we are typical talking about is subtle flavor loss experienced by everyone, even us, i.e. loss of hop aroma and flavor, malt profile changes, etc.

The breakdown here is when people think we are telling them that they are making wet cardboard, skunked vinegar beer, which we are most certainly not. Everyone here, especially those viewing and responding to our posts is savvy enough to know that there is more nuance and subtlety involved.

I like discussion and don't want people on the defensive. That doesn't help anyone. With that said, everyone, including us, needs to be honest about faults and interested in fixing them and improving. Or maybe they don't YMMV, but more information is always better than less.
My work around on this is to brew beers with too much flavor, then after a little flavor loss they are perfect

Offline Robert

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2018, 05:45:59 PM »
Arguments about staleness, in an odd twist of irony, seemingly never get old. We need to find a way to capture that so we can add it to our beer.

I'd say discussion is more an apt term. If you call something an argument for long enough it will eventually become one.  ;)
Here's the evidence I am using to support my use of the word "Argument"

I served time (that's what it felt like) as a philosophy student and in law school.  I'm with Jim on the formal definition of "argument!"  What the rest of you are referring to is formally called a "b****fest" or a "catfight."  ;D
Rob
Akron, Ohio

"There is always a well-known solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong."  -- Mencken

Il meglio è nemico del bene.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Non illegitimes carborundum.

Online Big Monk

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Re: Bottle Cap Ingress: Is it real?
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2018, 05:46:03 PM »
So the graph you linked is nice, but it just tells us the obvious: you need to beat the hell out of a beer to get it to start noticably staling, i.e. “Stage C”.

I guess I just don't understand what you are saying. If it isn't noticeable, then who cares?

What i'm saying is this: Bamforth is talking about stereotype oxidation flavors: cardboard, skunk, etc. What we are typical talking about is subtle flavor loss experienced by everyone, even us, i.e. loss of hop aroma and flavor, malt profile changes, etc.

The breakdown here is when people think we are telling them that they are making wet cardboard, skunked vinegar beer, which we are most certainly not. Everyone here, especially those viewing and responding to our posts is savvy enough to know that there is more nuance and subtlety involved.

I like discussion and don't want people on the defensive. That doesn't help anyone. With that said, everyone, including us, needs to be honest about faults and interested in fixing them and improving. Or maybe they don't YMMV, but more information is always better than less.
My work around on this is to brew beers with too much flavor, then after a little flavor loss they are perfect

Don't you lose points for perfection?
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.”   Aristotle

“To my big brother George. The richest man in town.” Harry Bailey

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com