Author Topic: Biotransformation  (Read 1053 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Biotransformation
« on: February 03, 2018, 04:41:06 PM »
Anyone listen to the latest Basic Brewing podcast with John Palmer regarding New England IPA?

I've been hearing about hop biotransformation for a few years, and back then there was little to no scientific study to prove it. Lately I've been hearing it a lot from several noteworthy brewing gurus. But according to Palmer, who cited a professor at UofO, biotransformation has only been proven in a couple wine strains and a couple Bret strains. Palmer is saying biotransformation is not occurring in ale or lager strains.

I suppose it could be successfully argued that SOMETHING is different when comparing beers dry hopped post fermentation with those dry hopped during fermentation, but who knows exactly what that is right now?

After hearing so many use the term biotransformation lately, I was believing that there must have been a new study proving it. I tried it in a couple pale ales and found no change or at least unnoticeable change, and on one brew day I did one batch at day 3 (during) compared to one batch for the last 3 days (post), and the post fermentation had obviously more aroma, but the same basic flavors. Meaning no noticeable new biotransformation flavors.

I'm curious if someone has study info that Palmer missed, or if this is another case of jumping on the band wagon just to find there is no band...

Offline denny

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2018, 05:03:08 PM »
What UofO?  University of Oregon?  Could it be OSU (OR State University) instead?
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2018, 05:05:56 PM »
I thought he said Prof Tom Shawhammer or Strawhammer, and thought he said University of Oregon.

Offline denny

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2018, 05:07:53 PM »
I thought he said Prof Tom Shawhammer or Strawhammer, and thought he said University of Oregon.

Shellhammer at Oregon State...I know him and I've been talking to him about my protein experiment.  I'll try to contact him about this.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 05:13:18 PM »
Cool

Offline lupulus

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 08:56:28 PM »
I did not understand Palmer said that. Just that it is not proven. Many combinations and impossible to test them all.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 09:41:26 PM »
Well, when directly asked if he thought biotransformation was occurring in NEIPAs his answer was "No."

I think that a lack of scientific evidence  equates to "maybe". If they can test for biotransformation in one sac strain, they can test for it in others, or most, or all of them. Not impossible, perhaps impractical.

The jury isn't still out on this, actually it sounds like the detectives have not finished the investigation. If so, it's a bit early to be claiming biotransformation is a thing in so many untested ales. There very well may be a thing, but do we know it's biotransformation?

Edit: after listening yet again, he was being asked if biotransformation was the cause of the haze when he answered "No." Then he went on to explain the lack of proof regarding ale yeast. Then he's asked again if there is any biotransformation occurring bla bla.. "to the best of my knowledge there is not".

I wanted to make sure I was quoting him correctly in the right context.

Anyway, it's in the interview. Again, my point is not to say biotransformation is not happening. My point is to ask where the studies are to support so many brewing authorities claiming it occurs.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 10:38:00 PM by klickitat jim »

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 11:00:23 PM »
I have a buddy who runs a Brewery in AZ, real smart kid, Siebel grad. He swears on biotransformation (I even heard him give a talk in it at a brewers conference I attended a couple years back) and I’ll tell you this: his hoppy beers are great. But he has to add more hops (he says) because of the method of hopping during fermentation. I simply feel like it is the amount of hops he uses that gets him those results. Just sayin’


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 12:20:41 AM »
Until further info, I am convinced it adds je ne sais quoi.

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2018, 01:22:32 PM »
Another vote that it's baloney.

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2018, 01:34:23 PM »
Another vote that it's baloney.

Sometimes I'm wrong.  But sometimes I'm right.
It's a statistics thing. If you always say that everything is baloney, then you are right every time you are actually served baloney. Just kidding. You are awesome!
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Online Robert

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2018, 01:48:28 PM »
Another vote that it's baloney.

Sometimes I'm wrong.  But sometimes I'm right.
It's a statistics thing. If you always say that everything is baloney, then you are right every time you are actually served baloney. Just kidding. You are awesome!
Always predict the most outrageous and improbable thing.  Everyone will assume you are just crazy.  Then one day, something outrageous will occur, and you will be the only one who was right.   Then they will all wonder if you were really the smart one all along....
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 01:55:28 PM »
There are a few studies out that show That something is going on. I also had come across the studies that said only some yeasts can do it.

Here is a nice little write up from Scott Janish that has some data and references.
http://scottjanish.com/examination-of-studies-hopping-methods-and-concepts-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 02:16:36 PM »
There are a few studies out that show That something is going on. I also had come across the studies that said only some yeasts can do it.

Here is a nice little write up from Scott Janish that has some data and references.
http://scottjanish.com/examination-of-studies-hopping-methods-and-concepts-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/
Makes me wonder. Either Palmer and Shellhammer are unaware of that 2003 study, or it's been disproved. I'm curious to see what Denny finds out from Shellhammer. I am hoping it gets proven because it's a neat idea, but I'm not going to cherry pick to support something I'm wishful for

Online Robert

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Re: Biotransformation
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 02:21:28 PM »
I'm not going to cherry pick to support something I'm wishful for

Who let this guy in? ;)
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