Author Topic: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe  (Read 10280 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 02:20:05 AM »
Well I balance banana with the warmer fermentation.  I use 114 to balance clove or ester or yeasty( different rest times promote different profiles). There is a blurb about it in chapter 7 iirc.
W is my beer. It has slight banana. The Other mash which is split 60/40 makes a crazy estery beer. It’s wild.  But it oxidizes the mash too much for me and I then lose the lingering fresh malt that has to be in there. 




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Yep ch. 7 is the majority process like yours.  The Maltase Process in ch. 4 is intended to make super estery (more traditional country style) beers.  Matter of taste.  As to hackrsackr's question on where the Glucose comes from in the normal mash,  well all mashes produce some.  There's just normally a limit of 10% because the maltase was denatured above 114 before it had a good dinner.
Rob Stein
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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 02:20:17 AM »
Interesting. I’ve never read about ester production from those really low mash rests.

I like a moderate amount of banana and a lot of clove. I use 380 which naturally throws a bunch of isoamyl acetate, and ferment cool to stop it from making bubblegum. The clove usually appears after speise and natural carbonation. I feel like the high pressure coaxes the 4vg out of the yeast in the secondary fermentation.

Always struggled with consistent banana from 3068.


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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 02:22:29 AM »
Well I balance banana with the warmer fermentation.  I use 114 to balance clove or ester or yeasty( different rest times promote different profiles). There is a blurb about it in chapter 7 iirc.
W is my beer. It has slight banana. The Other mash which is split 60/40 makes a crazy estery beer. It’s wild.  But it oxidizes the mash too much for me and I then lose the lingering fresh malt that has to be in there. 




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Yep ch. 7 is the majority process like yours.  The Maltase Process in ch. 4 is intended to make super estery (more traditional country style) beers.  Matter of taste.  As to hackrsackr's question on where the Glucose comes from in the normal mash,  well all mashes produce some.  There's just normally a limit of 10% because the maltase was denatured above 114 before it had a good dinner.

I get that some glucose is always made, just wondering how that rest makes more, or increases the amount of glucose/isoA.


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The Beerery

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2018, 02:25:19 AM »
Well I balance banana with the warmer fermentation.  I use 114 to balance clove or ester or yeasty( different rest times promote different profiles). There is a blurb about it in chapter 7 iirc.
W is my beer. It has slight banana. The Other mash which is split 60/40 makes a crazy estery beer. It’s wild.  But it oxidizes the mash too much for me and I then lose the lingering fresh malt that has to be in there. 




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBut
Yep ch. 7 is the majority process like yours.  The Maltase Process in ch. 4 is intended to make super estery (more traditional country style) beers.  Matter of taste.  As to hackrsackr's question on where the Glucose comes from in the normal mash,  well all mashes produce some.  There's just normally a limit of 10% because the maltase was denatured above 114 before it had a good dinner.

I get that some glucose is always made, just wondering how that rest makes more, or increases the amount of glucose/isoA.


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Because it’s below the denaturing point. 


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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2018, 02:27:03 AM »
So it’s just the default amount that all acid rests produce...


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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2018, 02:27:47 AM »
There still isn’t maltose though.


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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2018, 02:31:04 AM »
The whole point of that mash is make maltose, put back in a mash with active maltase, makes glucose and fructose(?)...




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Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2018, 02:31:55 AM »
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2018, 02:33:30 AM »
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


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The Beerery

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2018, 02:36:12 AM »
Right. You need the special mash OR you can influence it with other non-RHG methods.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2018, 02:38:34 AM »
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


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No, you get 10% glucose like any other mash; but that is irrelevant with most yeast.  With a Weizen yeast that makes isoamyl acetate from glucose, that's pretty noticeable.   If you want even more...
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2018, 02:40:32 AM »
Right. You need the special mash OR you can influence it with other non-RHG methods.


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Non-conforming methods such as?  Now I've really gotten sucked into this.... ???
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2018, 02:42:43 AM »
Pitch rate and temp is the way I tackle it. That and I wholeheartedly believe in open fermentation for isoA production. The aerobic early fermentation does something.


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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2018, 02:44:09 AM »
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


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No, you get 10% glucose like any other mash; but that is irrelevant with most yeast.  With a Weizen yeast that makes isoamyl acetate from glucose, that's pretty noticeable.   If you want even more...

I think you may need to revisit that hypothesis.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2018, 02:45:51 AM »
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


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No, you get 10% glucose like any other mash; but that is irrelevant with most yeast.  With a Weizen yeast that makes isoamyl acetate from glucose, that's pretty noticeable.   If you want even more...

I think you may need to revisit that hypothesis.


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Revisit what part?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.