Author Topic: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe  (Read 7209 times)

Offline Big Monk

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
  • My name is Derek Scott. I like De Clerck and pH.
    • View Profile
    • Low Oxygen Brewing
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2018, 04:27:31 PM »
^ Pretentious asshat alert...  Good for you for winning a medal... I'm a home Brewer dude.  Don't be a dick.  I created this recipe in hopes of saving someone else the intense amount of time in research I did.  BTW I live at an elevation of 4500 ft. So I do need to boil for extended periods, thanks though.  Also, now that you've got me all riled up, I have concluded that you are in fact the troll here.  Way to be a dickhead. Keep winning medals no one cares about but you.

Wow man. Martin is a well known and well liked (not to mention well respected) contributor here and on other forums. Not a good way to start here.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check us out at http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Check out The deLange/Scott Water Troubleshooter at https://watertroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline Brewtopalonian

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 04:31:16 PM »
In my opinion, respect earns respect.  Maybe Martin should make my beer and try it first before tearing me apart based solely on recipe construction.  He replied to something I am proud of and used a condescending tone with me.  He's a pretentious asshat.
Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Offline mabrungard

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2579
  • Water matters!
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 04:43:04 PM »
My apologies, when someone (an anonymous someone, at that) comes in and claims that they've got all the answers and those answers seem odd, I've got to at least put a question mark out there.

PS: I agreed with a number of the OP's points. I'm sorry to have offended.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 04:45:36 PM by mabrungard »
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 04:43:29 PM »
In my opinion, respect earns respect.  Maybe Martin should make my beer and try it first before tearing me apart based solely on recipe construction.  He replied to something I am proud of and used a condescending tone with me.  He's a pretentious asshat.
He's what you call a nationally renowned authority.  If you seek out a forum to share information and learn, well, we've all learned a lot from him. He's a nationally ranked beer judge, water expert, and is footnoted in more brewing books than I can count.  I am very glad he hangs around this forum so we can get his input directly and -- get this -- in his friendly, helpful, and gracious manner.

PS I too hope not to offend or sound condescending with regard to the OP.  (Nor to inflate Martin's ego.)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 04:54:07 PM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Chepachet, RI
    • View Profile
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2018, 04:51:39 PM »
In my opinion, respect earns respect.  Maybe Martin should make my beer and try it first before tearing me apart based solely on recipe construction.  He replied to something I am proud of and used a condescending tone with me.  He's a pretentious asshat.

Did you discuss in person, or over the phone? As far as I'm aware, I've never heard any tone when reading forum messages.

In your original post, you stated that you want to make a positive contribution here. Please be mindful that this a discussion forum rather than simply a recipe site. I'd recommend against posting if you're not willing to accept constructive criticism. Once you put your post up, it becomes fair game for discussion - you don't own it any more.

If it weren't what I've learned on this site from other brewers (and Martin is right at the top of that list), I would likely have given up on this hobby years ago. Whether or not you decide to incorporate any advice you see here in your own brewing is up to you, but that's no reason to become a roadblock in the discussion that has started up.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline Brewtopalonian

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2018, 05:22:24 PM »
Martin,

My name is Jared Fuller.  Don't waste your time researching, as I've not won any competition anywhere in anything.  I've been home brewing for about 10 years now.  I have no desire to enter competitions, I simply want to make good beer at home.  I live in Utah, no good beer here due to silly regulations.  (I suppose that's not completely true, you can get good beer if you buy it in bottles at the state run liquor stores.... for a ridiculous price).  I was offended because you called me a troll and came at this as though I had attacked your very person.  I never intended to say I had ALL the answers simply that I have FINALLY (after attempting 13 batches of this in different manners) created a Hefe that I'm very proud of.  It was my intention to give this recipe to the forums, since much of the information I've found was obtained from here, in combination with several excellent books, mainly "How to Brew" by John Palmer, "Water" by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski, "Malt" by John Mallet, "Hops" by Stan Hieronymus, and "Yeast" by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff.  None of which were authored by you, so forgive me if I've not heard of you or your credentials. 

Like I said, I'm not in this to win a Gold or whatever it is that competition brewers do.  I'm in this to create great beer that I like.  No nose knows like your nose knows.  If you don't like it based on my recipe, I beg you try mine before you judge me completely.  Then, if it's not a good hefe, feel free to let me know what you didn't like about it. 

I only joined the forums so I could find good information about what has and has not worked for people in certain recipes.  I'm not here to gloat, I just wanted to give back to a community that I had used as a good resource in the past.  I don't post often, because it seems as though, unless you're a medal winner in some competition, you get torn apart.  Instead of talking to me in the third person as the "OP", perhaps say "hey man, this is how I have done mine in the past, maybe you want to try this?" or "have you tried doing it this way?", not "As a professional, this is incorrect and this person is a troll".... see how tone changes?

Thanks
Jared
Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Offline mabrungard

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2579
  • Water matters!
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2018, 05:47:30 PM »
Jared,

I was worried that your original post was a troll that could end up leading an innocent brewer astray. I wasn't trying to be mean. The title you applied to the thread should make any brewer take notice and want to follow your advice.

I'm OK with bravado when its backed up. For instance, I'll grudgingly accept recommendations from Jamil Zaneshaff and Gordon Strong. But I still do other research and bind that all together with my findings and experience. For example, I was floored a few months ago when there was a scientific brewing journal that published actual data that shows that grists with HIGHER percentage of barley produce more 4VG in weizens. I had assumed it was the wheat that helped form that component (its a wheat beer, after all!!). So I learned something. I'll admit that what you've written could still prove to be the ticket to better weizen, its just that I'm looking for strong proof.

I greatly appreciate forum contributors that stand up for what they write. Thank you for stepping out of the shadow and I look forward to tasting and discussing your beers with you some day.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2018, 05:48:27 PM »
Martin may not have written those books but Palmer and Kaminsky do cite him as their source many times.  Just sayin'.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2018, 05:53:56 PM »



I'm OK with bravado when its backed up. For instance, I'll grudgingly accept recommendations from Jamil Zaneshaff and Gordon Strong. But I still do other research...


AWESOME!!! Thanks for that, Martin. 🤣

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2018, 06:01:25 PM »
Aaaaand...Jim is here to readjust our attitude!😁
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2018, 06:14:20 PM »
^^^^^
Just opened my fortune cookie: "He who learns to laugh at himself will never cease to be amused."
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hackrsackr

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 12:12:52 PM »
Brewtopaloian: thanks for sharing the recipe. I’m not exactly sure why this is sooo “uncharacteristic...” to be called a troll. The water is a bit unusual, but who cares. I’m kinda interested now in what that level of sulfate does to a hefe. I’ve bumped chloride up a bunch in the past, and I actually prefer mine with a slightly elevated chloride level (or maybe it’s the calcium.)

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe, and I’m sure my recipe is “uncharacteristic, wrong or way off” too. The fact that you’re proud of, and enjoy drinking your creation is vastly more important than what folks/trolls say on the internet. ✌️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Brewtopalonian

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 10:10:03 PM »
I guess I never did address Martin's concern of overly mineralized water.  My explanation for addition of minerals is to promote a bready malt flavor extracted from the grains.  It was my hopes (and success) that in adding these minerals I would achieve a pleasant bread-like characteristic in the beer.  How much of a difference this made is unknown because when I began building the recipe I had always added these minerals and never tried it with just tap or RO water. 
Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 10:51:34 PM »
I guess I never did address Martin's concern of overly mineralized water.  My explanation for addition of minerals is to promote a bready malt flavor extracted from the grains.  It was my hopes (and success) that in adding these minerals I would achieve a pleasant bread-like characteristic in the beer.  How much of a difference this made is unknown because when I began building the recipe I had always added these minerals and never tried it with just tap or RO water.
I have to admit I still don't quite get the high bicarbonate concentration.   Is this somehow contributing to the ferulic rest?  I know I would try to get it in the range where I could acidity with lactic only (the only acid I like to use as it's natural.to the brewing process) but I brew mainly Pils and don't pretend to know the ins and outs of Weizen. Could you explain the bicarb?  On the rest of your minerals, I agree that some degree of sulfate seems to draw a grainy flavor from the malt, chloride alone gives a much less complex malt flavor (seems that way to me at least. )
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Brewtopalonian

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 11:01:47 PM »
Hmm, that's a good question on the bicarb.  I guess I never questioned it.  I took the water profile suggestion from another website dedicated to water (can't remember for the life of me which one).  But I remember searching for "how to impart bready flavors in beer" and found that...  But now that you andartin have pointed out, I'm not sure why there is a high bicarb level.  Even with it so high, I did not need to add any acid.  My pH at sacchrification was 5.4 which as o understand is within the acceptable tolerance.  Maybe try without any bicarb? Maybe I'll keep playing around with it and get that perfect.

Maybe, I'm right on the cusp of the Ultimate Weizen and just need to adopt some of this input.  After 13 batches, I'm pretty happy with it right now, but of course there's always room for improvement eh?
Keep It Simple, Stupid!