Author Topic: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe  (Read 8899 times)

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2018, 03:55:17 AM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


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Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


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A few good ones from my stash:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gk0uCJdog0f3WxqMDvxfHt-j1W-NYSI7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10kXMy5fNjvPVhPyQfN18oSUZswlIiYG-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pmujev58LUkO1rDbPHEAFp1u6ObvCzGC
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.


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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2018, 03:55:56 AM »
Oh I know all about it. Unfortunately. Warmer growth phase will make em throw isoA too.


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Just some constructive criticism: it makes it easier to read if you quote the person you are responding to.
Thanks mom.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2018, 04:00:07 AM »
^^^^^
I have just noticed that this thread may have set a 2018 record for most consecutive on topic, non acrimonious posts.  Yay us.
Don't blow it.
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I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2018, 04:01:38 AM »
🤙


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2018, 04:10:16 AM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


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Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few good ones from my stash:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gk0uCJdog0f3WxqMDvxfHt-j1W-NYSI7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10kXMy5fNjvPVhPyQfN18oSUZswlIiYG-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pmujev58LUkO1rDbPHEAFp1u6ObvCzGC
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.


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The common thread is yeast growth is linearly related to higher alcohol production and inversely related to ester synthesis. Since Oxygen promotes yeast growth, prolonged, excessive, or even moderate oxygenation reduces esters.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 04:20:55 AM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #110 on: February 13, 2018, 04:22:08 AM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few good ones from my stash:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gk0uCJdog0f3WxqMDvxfHt-j1W-NYSI7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10kXMy5fNjvPVhPyQfN18oSUZswlIiYG-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pmujev58LUkO1rDbPHEAFp1u6ObvCzGC
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.


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The common thread is yeast growth is linearly related to higher alcohol production and inversely related to ester synthesis. Since Oxygen promotes yeast growth, prolonged, excessive, or even moderate oxygenation reduces ester synthesis.
I believe you’re missing my point. I’m not talking DO (in high gravity worts nonetheless) I’m saying that the access to atmospheric oxygen prolongs the growth phase resulting in increased IsoA.

So you’re saying if I pitch ten smack packs into a 5 gal of wort I’ll have more esters than a half a pack in the same 5 gal.


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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #111 on: February 13, 2018, 04:25:48 AM »
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #112 on: February 13, 2018, 04:32:08 AM »
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


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Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context. It could very well be that we are both right if the IsoA content is driven by higher alcohols.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 04:35:53 AM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #113 on: February 13, 2018, 04:42:50 AM »
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


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Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context.
That could be. My original statement was that the open ferment drove the isoA, and like your data states fusel production and oxygen are directly related, so that has to also play a role in it also. More isoamyl alcohol, higher probability of it combining with acetic acid, which Oxygen can promote as well. That’s what led me to wonder if there is ester synthesis that occurs outside of the cell as a result of oxygenated precursors.

Also I believe don’t quote me on this, but can’t you synthesize IsoA with sulfur? I think that was the catalyst in my hypothesis for extracellular isoA synthesis.


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #114 on: February 13, 2018, 11:56:29 AM »
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


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Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context.
That could be. My original statement was that the open ferment drove the isoA, and like your data states fusel production and oxygen are directly related, so that has to also play a role in it also. More isoamyl alcohol, higher probability of it combining with acetic acid, which Oxygen can promote as well. That’s what led me to wonder if there is ester synthesis that occurs outside of the cell as a result of oxygenated precursors.

Also I believe don’t quote me on this, but can’t you synthesize IsoA with sulfur? I think that was the catalyst in my hypothesis for extracellular isoA synthesis.


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This talks quite extensively about things pretty closely related to what you hypothesize:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703881/pdf/BMRI2013-870802.pdf
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #115 on: February 13, 2018, 12:47:28 PM »
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context.
That could be. My original statement was that the open ferment drove the isoA, and like your data states fusel production and oxygen are directly related, so that has to also play a role in it also. More isoamyl alcohol, higher probability of it combining with acetic acid, which Oxygen can promote as well. That’s what led me to wonder if there is ester synthesis that occurs outside of the cell as a result of oxygenated precursors.

Also I believe don’t quote me on this, but can’t you synthesize IsoA with sulfur? I think that was the catalyst in my hypothesis for extracellular isoA synthesis.


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This talks quite extensively about things pretty closely related to what you hypothesize:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703881/pdf/BMRI2013-870802.pdf
Great read, thanks for sharing! One thing out of the many that caught my eye was they stated isoA production was greatest at 15c (30 degree rule was my immediate thought), but then the did the trials at 25c.

Yeah that goes into great depth on intracellular synthesis. I guess I’m saying the the open ferm may have some semi-aerobic qualities that lead to an increase in the production of isoA.


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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #116 on: February 13, 2018, 04:44:11 PM »
Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).

I've always wondered about that. It seems like there's always a supposition that yeast instantly grabs up available O2, but I've never heard any hard numbers. Did you take any measurements before two hours by any chance? I suppose it also very dependent on homogeneity of the wort/yeast/oxygen solution. It would probably depend on when during fermentation measurements were made.

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2018, 05:58:59 PM »
Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).

I've always wondered about that. It seems like there's always a supposition that yeast instantly grabs up available O2, but I've never heard any hard numbers. Did you take any measurements before two hours by any chance? I suppose it also very dependent on homogeneity of the wort/yeast/oxygen solution. It would probably depend on when during fermentation measurements were made.

Injected 8ppm

1hr 2ppm

2hr 0ppm

2.5m pitch rate with healthy active lager yeast at 45f.

Offline narcout

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2018, 09:01:42 PM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #119 on: February 13, 2018, 09:12:52 PM »
The common thread is yeast growth is linearly related to higher alcohol production and inversely related to ester synthesis. Since Oxygen promotes yeast growth, prolonged, excessive, or even moderate oxygenation reduces esters.

I thought it was a balancing act whereby more yeast growth = less CoA available for ester production but more higher alcohols available for ester production (and vice versa for less yeast growth). 

But maybe CoA availability is always/usually the limiting factor?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 09:26:43 PM by narcout »
There's nothing left to dismantle; the house it just collapsed on itself.  - A. Savage