Author Topic: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe  (Read 8695 times)

Offline JT

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #120 on: February 13, 2018, 11:16:16 PM »
Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).

I've always wondered about that. It seems like there's always a supposition that yeast instantly grabs up available O2, but I've never heard any hard numbers. Did you take any measurements before two hours by any chance? I suppose it also very dependent on homogeneity of the wort/yeast/oxygen solution. It would probably depend on when during fermentation measurements were made.

Injected 8ppm

1hr 2ppm

2hr 0ppm

2.5m pitch rate with healthy active lager yeast at 45f.
Any data on inactive yeast time, say from a chilled starter decanted and pitched?  Or that mason jar from the previous batch pulled out and pitched? 

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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2018, 02:03:37 AM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


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Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2018, 02:11:20 AM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hackrsackr

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Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2018, 03:26:59 AM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
I don’t have it on me at the moment, it’s in the Zymurgy medal issue.

Off the top of my head, It’s like:
Fairly soft water with 1g/gal cacl/strike water
50/48/2 wheat/pils/melanoidin
Couple grams of magnum 10 ibus or so.
Wlp380

Mash in at acid rest 10-15
Protein rest 10 or so.
Beta 45 mins or so.
I think I skipped an alpha rest if my memory serves me correctly.

In Zymurgy I called it an open/closed ferment.
pitch at 15c and open ferment at 15c (15+15 comes from the 30 degree rule or whatever they call it.) ferment 72 hours
Transfer to a keg with speise in it, keg condition 72 hrs at like 18c is the closed part
I let it build to a bout 2.8 bar or like 40 psi(whatever the bar equivalent is)
Crash, usually lager for 10-14 days, but for the comp with shipping and stuff I bottle it about 3 days after the crash. Usually for comps my hefe’s smell like malt, wheat, light clove, moderate sulfur, very little isoA. By comp time it seems to be malt and wheat, big banana, no sulfur, same moderate 4vg. That change is why I wonder if Sulfur Dioxide SO2 or sulfites SO3 can catalyze the synthesis isoA outside of the yeast cell. Seems coincidental that sulfur seems decrease, while isoA increases. In lab production they use sulfuric acid (H2SO4) as a catalyst to convert isoamyl alcohol and acetic acid into isoamyl acetate.
Can one of these sulfur derivatives initiate the synthesis isoA?
Is H2O + SO3~>H2SO4 happening and catalyzing isoA synthesis outside of the cell in the wort?

May have to proposition big monk to scour the research for data.





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« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 03:32:05 AM by hackrsackr »

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2018, 12:21:29 PM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
I don’t have it on me at the moment, it’s in the Zymurgy medal issue.

Off the top of my head, It’s like:
Fairly soft water with 1g/gal cacl/strike water
50/48/2 wheat/pils/melanoidin
Couple grams of magnum 10 ibus or so.
Wlp380

Mash in at acid rest 10-15
Protein rest 10 or so.
Beta 45 mins or so.
I think I skipped an alpha rest if my memory serves me correctly.

In Zymurgy I called it an open/closed ferment.
pitch at 15c and open ferment at 15c (15+15 comes from the 30 degree rule or whatever they call it.) ferment 72 hours
Transfer to a keg with speise in it, keg condition 72 hrs at like 18c is the closed part
I let it build to a bout 2.8 bar or like 40 psi(whatever the bar equivalent is)
Crash, usually lager for 10-14 days, but for the comp with shipping and stuff I bottle it about 3 days after the crash. Usually for comps my hefe’s smell like malt, wheat, light clove, moderate sulfur, very little isoA. By comp time it seems to be malt and wheat, big banana, no sulfur, same moderate 4vg. That change is why I wonder if Sulfur Dioxide SO2 or sulfites SO3 can catalyze the synthesis isoA outside of the yeast cell. Seems coincidental that sulfur seems decrease, while isoA increases. In lab production they use sulfuric acid (H2SO4) as a catalyst to convert isoamyl alcohol and acetic acid into isoamyl acetate.
Can one of these sulfur derivatives initiate the synthesis isoA?
Is H2O + SO3~>H2SO4 happening and catalyzing isoA synthesis outside of the cell in the wort?

May have to proposition big monk to scour the research for data.





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After reading a bit over some tea this morning, I'm more certain than I was previously that the fermenter geometry theory doesn't really hold weight. There has to be something outside the normal fermentation variables that explains what you are talking about.

I'll scan some references today and report anything of note I find.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2018, 01:36:04 PM »
Rob, that's a typical recipe, but I see that you do interesting enhancements in brewing. Reviewing Zymurgy, I see that your recollection was good. Only the acid malt addition was omitted. That provides a dose of lactate that I feel is an enhancement in that style. Lactate is metabolized by yeast and I'm guessing that it has a hand in the overall gold-medal effects.

One question: Did you rebrew for the second round? I didn't and my beer was nothing like it was in the first round. Freshness seems to be a needed hallmark of this style.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #126 on: February 14, 2018, 02:21:16 PM »
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
I don’t have it on me at the moment, it’s in the Zymurgy medal issue.

Off the top of my head, It’s like:
Fairly soft water with 1g/gal cacl/strike water
50/48/2 wheat/pils/melanoidin
Couple grams of magnum 10 ibus or so.
Wlp380

Mash in at acid rest 10-15
Protein rest 10 or so.
Beta 45 mins or so.
I think I skipped an alpha rest if my memory serves me correctly.

In Zymurgy I called it an open/closed ferment.
pitch at 15c and open ferment at 15c (15+15 comes from the 30 degree rule or whatever they call it.) ferment 72 hours
Transfer to a keg with speise in it, keg condition 72 hrs at like 18c is the closed part
I let it build to a bout 2.8 bar or like 40 psi(whatever the bar equivalent is)
Crash, usually lager for 10-14 days, but for the comp with shipping and stuff I bottle it about 3 days after the crash. Usually for comps my hefe’s smell like malt, wheat, light clove, moderate sulfur, very little isoA. By comp time it seems to be malt and wheat, big banana, no sulfur, same moderate 4vg. That change is why I wonder if Sulfur Dioxide SO2 or sulfites SO3 can catalyze the synthesis isoA outside of the yeast cell. Seems coincidental that sulfur seems decrease, while isoA increases. In lab production they use sulfuric acid (H2SO4) as a catalyst to convert isoamyl alcohol and acetic acid into isoamyl acetate.
Can one of these sulfur derivatives initiate the synthesis isoA?
Is H2O + SO3~>H2SO4 happening and catalyzing isoA synthesis outside of the cell in the wort?

May have to proposition big monk to scour the research for data.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After reading a bit over some tea this morning, I'm more certain than I was previously that the fermenter geometry theory doesn't really hold weight. There has to be something outside the normal fermentation variables that explains what you are talking about.

I'll scan some references today and report anything of note I find.
1. What fermenter geometry theory are you talking about?

2. How can you be so certain as to whatever #1 is, is invalid?



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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #127 on: February 14, 2018, 02:37:39 PM »
Rob, that's a typical recipe, but I see that you do interesting enhancements in brewing. Reviewing Zymurgy, I see that your recollection was good. Only the acid malt addition was omitted. That provides a dose of lactate that I feel is an enhancement in that style. Lactate is metabolized by yeast and I'm guessing that it has a hand in the overall gold-medal effects.

One question: Did you rebrew for the second round? I didn't and my beer was nothing like it was in the first round. Freshness seems to be a needed hallmark of this style.

Lactate can also be synthesized by the yeast into the ester, ethyl lactate. Phosphoric acid always makes wonder if I’m creating more calcium phosphate precipitate than anything.

Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #128 on: February 14, 2018, 02:46:55 PM »
Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.

Agreed! I found that out the hard way over a decade ago, but it bears repeating to all competitive brewers and beer afficionados. Unless your entering a style that requires significant lagering or maturation time, a fresh beer is more likely to do better in the drinker's glass.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #129 on: February 14, 2018, 02:52:28 PM »
Rob, that's a typical recipe, but I see that you do interesting enhancements in brewing. Reviewing Zymurgy, I see that your recollection was good. Only the acid malt addition was omitted. That provides a dose of lactate that I feel is an enhancement in that style. Lactate is metabolized by yeast and I'm guessing that it has a hand in the overall gold-medal effects.

One question: Did you rebrew for the second round? I didn't and my beer was nothing like it was in the first round. Freshness seems to be a needed hallmark of this style.

Lactate can also be synthesized by the yeast into the ester, ethyl lactate. Phosphoric acid always makes wonder if I’m creating more calcium phosphate precipitate than anything.

Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.

You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Granted, my main area of interest is in Trappist yeasts. Your discussion of technique with Hefe presents a different set of circumstances. It isn't terribly difficult to grasp once you think about it: Use a yeast which is a known sulfur producer and see how banana develops after packaging with dissipation of the sulfur. That, IMHO, is the smoking gun in your case.

It could be that my assumptions and interpretations on the oxygen content driving yeast growth and reducing esters is true and pertinent for the types of beers I brew. I don't want to generalize your experiences and points  and say they are wrong outright, but it could be that the pathway to banana for you exists outside of these generally accepted ester synthesis pathways, and that your theory that open fermentation is a contributor is overshadowed by the transformation at the packaging stage.

Whatever the reality is, it doesn't change that you made an award winning beer. It is just interesting to me to try and understand why you did.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
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Offline Stevie

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Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #130 on: February 14, 2018, 03:42:40 PM »
Wow!  Lots of hostility about a recipe.  For what it’s worth, I still plan on brewing the recipe as shown in this post. 

Also, for what it’s worth, I asked Martin many months ago if he would be interested in simply removing the color background from just the Instructions section of his spreadsheet so a person could print, and read, the instructions while learning and working the spreadsheet.  This would enable a nice clean printout without using tons of color ink.  Well, he never replied and has since sent out two upgrades, none of which included the instructions suitable for printing.  So, Point is, while I respect Martins work and his authority on the subject of Water, as a person interested in assisting fellow brewers, he leaves a great deal to be desired - at least in my eyes.  I too found his comments to be condescending and rude.

Regardless of what your authority or level of expertise, you should always treat others with the same respect you wish to be treated yourself.

Sorry for the rant.
Damn bro. He’s a water expert that created a killer spreadsheet that he offers for free or enhanced with no set price. He ain’t Microsoft.

Option 1 - Page setup -> sheet -> check black and white.
Option 2 - Use the new window and arrange features to view both the instructions and the other sheet at the same time
Option 3 - Open a second copy of the workbook and arrange side by side
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 03:48:44 PM by Stevie »

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #131 on: February 14, 2018, 08:02:18 PM »
You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Derek,

I'm sure you've seen photos of the open fermenters in some German Hefe breweries. I've got to believe that the weizen yeast has some sort of affinity to some slight oxygenation. Even under a big krausen, I've got to assume that some oxygen gets into the wort. While I'm not sure how effective the loose foil cover is for Rob, with respect to enabling oxygen ingress to the fermenter, I suppose there is some.

Isn't it possible that those scientific literature are presenting results that are non-weizen related and there could be some truth in the benefit of micro-oxygenation in this case?
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #132 on: February 14, 2018, 08:25:51 PM »
You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Derek,

I'm sure you've seen photos of the open fermenters in some German Hefe breweries. I've got to believe that the weizen yeast has some sort of affinity to some slight oxygenation. Even under a big krausen, I've got to assume that some oxygen gets into the wort. While I'm not sure how effective the loose foil cover is for Rob, with respect to enabling oxygen ingress to the fermenter, I suppose there is some.

Isn't it possible that those scientific literature are presenting results that are non-weizen related and there could be some truth in the benefit of micro-oxygenation in this case?

Certainly! I even stated that right after the above quoted comment:

Granted, my main area of interest is in Trappist yeasts. Your discussion of technique with Hefe presents a different set of circumstances. It isn't terribly difficult to grasp once you think about it: Use a yeast which is a known sulfur producer and see how banana develops after packaging with dissipation of the sulfur. That, IMHO, is the smoking gun in your case.

It could be that my assumptions and interpretations on the oxygen content driving yeast growth and reducing esters is true and pertinent for the types of beers I brew. I don't want to generalize your experiences and points  and say they are wrong outright, but it could be that the pathway to banana for you exists outside of these generally accepted ester synthesis pathways, and that your theory that open fermentation is a contributor is overshadowed by the transformation at the packaging stage.

You have to temper my comments with the fact that in the beers I love (Trappist), I'm looking to minimize banana. If the IsoA content in Hefe is driven by synthesis of higher alcohols during fermentation than I am in no way shape or form arguing the open fermentation concept.

I think we were just communally sussing out whether the role of yeast derived sulfites once packaged may contribute as well, which seems to line up with hackrsackr's brewery data.



« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 08:33:41 PM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline erockrph

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #133 on: February 14, 2018, 08:30:12 PM »
Regarding open fermentation, I was under the impression that it was more a factor of allowing the CO2 to offgas freely rather than access to O2. I'm sorry that I don't have any primary literature to quote here, but I swear I've heard on more than one occasion that CO2 concentration can alter yeast metabolism.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #134 on: February 14, 2018, 08:31:13 PM »
Regarding open fermentation, I was under the impression that it was more a factor of allowing the CO2 to offgas freely rather than access to O2. I'm sorry that I don't have any primary literature to quote here, but I swear I've heard on more than one occasion that CO2 concentration can alter yeast metabolism.

CO2 pressure will affect ester content.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/