Author Topic: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe  (Read 5433 times)

Offline thcipriani

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #150 on: March 09, 2018, 03:54:30 PM »
FWIW, and this is from what I feel is mostly a community outsider perspective as I haven't been active on this forum in quite a while: this thread took a necessary early detour to address remarks that were not intended to malicious, but could have have easily been perceived as such.

The thread, likely, should have ended after that was addressed. As moderators (seemingly since this forums inception) have taken a very light touch it was up to participants who were at the point in a somewhat heated state to end the thread and move discussion elsewhere, but that didn't happen.

At this point it seemed to me when I posted my questions, there would be too much lost context to switch to a new thread.

I will second Big Monk's statement that this thread is a good read.

I'd like to propose that *this* discussion be moved to https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31324.0 so that we don't end up creating context that will be lost in an un-searchable topic.
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Offline JT

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #151 on: June 10, 2018, 12:55:39 AM »


So to get the discussion back on track, I pride myself on my weissbier and it’s just like sitting in Munich in a Biergarten.
Did you have a goal for a commercial example? 
My favorite is W.  Hefe. 
What every one fails to realize is that weiss production is as precise as lager production. It's yeast dominated so people think they are easy to do because of all the phenolics of the yeast, but it's couldn't be more wrong. There are so many nuances to these beers.. Yeasty, phenolic, clove, banana, dough, lingering malt, sauergut, etc.  It's these same reasons why I feel every american version sucks and pales in comparison. You can't go off bottles either cause, because they are oxidized, and some of the flavors that come though are oxidized flavors, namely honey.

So what would I do if I was trying to reproduce W hefeweiss bier here at home??

Step 1 Low oxygen brewhouse.

60% Weyermann Wheat malz
35% Weyermann Barke Pils
5% Weyermann carahell

Step mash (non decoction on our scale due to oxidation).
30 minute rest at 114 (to enhance esters and clove)
then step up though beta
147 for 30-40
163 for 30
170-10

Do not adjust pH at all let it ride.
Soft water, I like 40ish ppm ca, 70cl, 20na.

Pristine wort preboil, soft boil 60minutes
a 60min addition of hallertau mittlefuh, to about 12-14ibu
Drop post boil pH to 5.1 with a dose of sauergut
hot and cold break separation
5ppm 02, 1 smack pack per 5g of 3068
Ferment at 68F (to enhance banana)
Spund or Krausen to 4 vols.

That will do you good. At least thats how I would (do) do it. 




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Giving this a whirl tomorrow as I have yet to make one I'm really stoked about.  Oxygen aside, does it matter how the temp is bumped from 114 to 147?  I usually do no sparge on a RIMS and could bump through temp.  I could do a second infusion too.  The only reason I ask is I'm guessing there would be a pH difference between the two, at least initially. 
With fermentation, are you starting low and rising to 68° or heading straight there and holding?

Offline JT

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2018, 02:00:04 AM »
I ran the 114 rest, then raised temp through recirculation.  I pitched at 60, but bumped it to 62. Yeast is a kind of dated (April) pack of WLP300, no starter.  I'm open fermenting, and don't have the fridge set to cycle on until 68 - nervous about that - I don't usually give yeast that much free range.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 01:09:13 AM by JT »

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Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2018, 10:45:45 AM »
Did you run the temp steps via RIMS?  I am interested to know how wheat does in the RIMS. I’ve heard horror stories. In all barley, I just keep the flow going but I’ve read Wheat wants to gum up the works.


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« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 09:44:21 PM by BrewBama »
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Online JJeffers09

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2018, 11:20:06 AM »
Hey JT.  Hope all is well with your weissbier.  As a very big fan of the style and it has been my go to brew.  I'm in the ballpark of 90 brewdays of this style alone in the last 3 1/2 years, you could say I'm a little obsessed with the style.  One of the bits of advice I would like to give you making a great starter.  Happy accidents are difficult to repeat.  One of those happy accidents can be from your pitchrate.  Now I'm not talking about just your German wheat beer, obviously you know that's any beer you make.  Taking a dated pack of yeast is really hard to gauge or guess the health of your yeast that way.  Hefe being yeast, this beer all about enjoying a young fresh beer that needs healthy yeast.  It's the brewers choice to decide how much yeast for an estimated hundred billion cells or M/mL/°P.

My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches.  It's all trial and error with proper temperature control in your mash schedule and fermentation control to find the balance in esters/phenols.  As discussed thus far in the thread.  Developing the precursors to get the right phenolic character in the acid rest and continuing into the step or infusion mashing is obviously brewers choice.  I hope the info was helpful as it is all a take it or leave it situation! Happy Brewing!

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Offline JT

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #155 on: June 11, 2018, 10:16:05 PM »
Did you run the temp steps via RIMS?  I am interested to know how wheat does in the RIMS. I’ve heard horror stories. In all barley, I just keep the flow going but I’ve read Wheat wants to gum up the works.


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I did.  No problems at all.  I may or may not have needed it, but a few handfuls of rice hulls were added to the grain bill.  I also went no sparge as usual, so the mash was thin.   

Offline JT

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #156 on: June 11, 2018, 10:25:38 PM »
Hey JT.  Hope all is well with your weissbier.  As a very big fan of the style and it has been my go to brew.  I'm in the ballpark of 90 brewdays of this style alone in the last 3 1/2 years, you could say I'm a little obsessed with the style.  One of the bits of advice I would like to give you making a great starter.  Happy accidents are difficult to repeat.  One of those happy accidents can be from your pitchrate.  Now I'm not talking about just your German wheat beer, obviously you know that's any beer you make.  Taking a dated pack of yeast is really hard to gauge or guess the health of your yeast that way.  Hefe being yeast, this beer all about enjoying a young fresh beer that needs healthy yeast.  It's the brewers choice to decide how much yeast for an estimated hundred billion cells or M/mL/°P.

My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches.  It's all trial and error with proper temperature control in your mash schedule and fermentation control to find the balance in esters/phenols.  As discussed thus far in the thread.  Developing the precursors to get the right phenolic character in the acid rest and continuing into the step or infusion mashing is obviously brewers choice.  I hope the info was helpful as it is all a take it or leave it situation! Happy Brewing!

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Interesting!  I deliberately underpitched this time hoping to coax more out of the yeast.  IIRC I pitched a larger starter last time I brewed one, and the character of the beer was just lacking.  I only brew the style about once a year.  Nothing to do now but take notes and correct for the next brew.  At least I'll have a potential COE for the next one, should it prove problematic.  Thanks!

Offline JT

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #157 on: June 11, 2018, 11:48:47 PM »



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #158 on: June 11, 2018, 11:55:28 PM »



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

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« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:00:33 AM by JJeffers09 »
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Offline JT

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #159 on: June 12, 2018, 01:10:44 AM »



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

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Cool, I have no liquid in the airlock. It is just covered with foil. 

Online BrewBama

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #160 on: June 12, 2018, 01:51:56 AM »
Did you run the temp steps via RIMS?  I am interested to know how wheat does in the RIMS. I’ve heard horror stories. In all barley, I just keep the flow going but I’ve read Wheat wants to gum up the works.


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I did.  No problems at all.  I may or may not have needed it, but a few handfuls of rice hulls were added to the grain bill.  I also went no sparge as usual, so the mash was thin.

Cool. I’ve been doing full vol no sparge mash since I got the RIMS so I should be all set.


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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #161 on: June 12, 2018, 04:25:44 PM »
Hello All!

I hope this finds everyone in good spirits. 

There comes a time in everyone's life (sometimes many times) when they need to eat a little crow.  This is one of those times for me.  I started this post as a boisterous assumption of my success.  I don't think I truly understood what it was to be an AHA member and part of a learning community.  I instead treated this forum as a place I could boast about minor level of success I've had in homebrewing.  I feel the need to correct myself and eat some crow.

First off, I must extend some apologies to those I may have offended and or outright disregarded. Martin, for one, is one of the most intelligent men I've had the pleasure of reading about regarding brewing water.  His reputation was unknown to me until I did some continued research.  This community, being graced by his presence, is truly better off with him.  I hope he accepts my most sincere apology for my unwarranted aggression and child-like behavior when he was offering his cherished and useful advice.  I would also like to apologize to TheBeerery (of whom I do not know his real name), for the same reasons I apologized to Martin.  I made a critical error in believing I knew everything there was to know about a style many others are far more experts in than myself.  I hope both gentlemen know that I wish to eat my words and hope to remain a member of this community so that I may become further educated.

Addressing the progress of this particular thread, I am amazed at how much attention this got.  While I should have expected as much with such a bold statement as a title, I never thought I'd get so many excellent and intelligent conversations out of this.  It is because of Martin's comment about not leading someone astray with the title of this thread that I'd like to modify the title to something more fitting.  I will be renaming this thread "Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe".  I feel that with the direction this thread has taken, that is a more appropriate name.  I certainly didn't have the ultimate traditional weizen recipe, and I certainly didn't figure it out.  Though, through your combined efforts, we are certainly closer as a community to coming up with great weizen recipes!  It is due to that and the nature of this forum that I am happy to admit I am not the end all be all of weizens, not even by a long shot. 

I will be updating the OP with the name change, a more appropriate water profile (as suggested by Martin), and a brief paragraph explaining such changes.  I am happy to be a part of this community and hope to meet you all in person and discuss this very topic over some very nice weizens  ;D .  Thank you all for everything you've contributed to this post and I hope everyone has learned something from it, I know I certainly have!

Very Respectfully,

Jared
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Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
« Reply #162 on: June 12, 2018, 08:24:57 PM »
Wow, Thank you! But I thought your previous admissions were already magnanimous and the case was closed.

There are more ways to achieve similar results in the world of brewing. I wasn't saying that you were wrong, only that I hadn't done it that way. Keep striving for your definition of perfection, regardless of what others say. (of course we all have to recognize that we will still be criticized or extolled based on everyone else's perception).
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
« Reply #163 on: June 12, 2018, 08:45:50 PM »
Wow, Thank you! But I thought your previous admissions were already magnanimous and the case was closed.

There are more ways to achieve similar results in the world of brewing. I wasn't saying that you were wrong, only that I hadn't done it that way. Keep striving for your definition of perfection, regardless of what others say. (of course we all have to recognize that we will still be criticized or extolled based on everyone else's perception).
I made admissions, but never said the words of apology.  Guilt can be a powerful motivator. 

I am extremely happy with the direction this thread has gone and continues to go. I hope it is a home for great education on such a complex and wonderful style.

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Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
« Reply #164 on: June 12, 2018, 10:12:47 PM »
Well done sir. It’s not how bad you mess up (we all do that), it’s how well you recover. You recovered well.


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« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:06:31 PM by BrewBama »
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