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Author Topic: Too much SO4?  (Read 5923 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 02:13:06 pm »
^^^^
Never tasted wallboard.  The Chinese stuff may not be food grade. ;)
Rob Stein
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 02:27:22 pm »
I only go by my brewing software which states 200ppm, unknown if that's mash or final. Doesn't really matter as long as I stick with the same method and adjust from there to personal preference
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:32:27 pm by klickitat jim »

Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 04:20:02 pm »
I think it's final, if you are adding the same for your sparge. In BrunWater you choose the ppm, and it adds to the sparge as well as the mash. So, you may want to bring it down overall.
Frank C.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 04:25:30 pm »
No Sparge but ya, even if I didn't know my ppm, I know how much in grams and can just add less.

Main point was to look for some confirmation on how too much SO4 presents, and if that was what I thought it was... which it is.

Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 05:59:39 pm »
Certainly! I have found that 200 ppm is too much for me as well. The upper limit for me is 150-175.
Frank C.

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Offline charlie

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 07:10:27 pm »
14g to 9.5 gallons distilled

That sounds about right. I mash in with 15 g CaSO4 in water that already contains 18 ppm Ca and 15 ppm SO4, which gives me something like 109 ppm Ca and 235 ppm SO4 in the finished 10 gal brew. I approached that amount qualitatively: Just kept adding another tsp until it tasted right. I'm pretty sure I don't want to go higher on a regular beer.

I know some brewers that think all you need in water is some gypsum and calcium carbonate, but in my experience the brew will benefit from a complete mineral profile. Sodium  and chloride ions are deprecated, but a little salt makes anything taste better. There are brewers in this state who use ridiculous water profiles, and one that uses untreated soft spring water. And their beer suffers for it: There's a hole in the taste as the beer goes down. It just vanishes! And it doesn't leave you wanting more.

Charlie
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 07:19:37 pm by charlie »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 04:48:00 pm »
New day, fresh palate... I still get IT, and I do think 200ppm SO4 is probably too much for me. But what I was getting as papery yesterday, is coming off more like peanut today... almost earthy. And so I think it's borderline too much SO4 combined with the hops. This was 50g each of EKG Fuggels and Target as late hops

Offline Robert

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 04:56:03 pm »
Yeah, those are earthy hops, and the flavor effects of water and everything else in beer is a synergy, isn't it, the whole is more than the sum of the parts.  It's total perception you care about, and now you know how your palate perceives dryness.
Rob Stein
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 05:11:12 pm »
One take away... If you enter a pale hoppy high SO4 beer, don't be surprised if it gets dinged for oxidation. It's so similar I could easily see a judge thinking that's what it is
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 05:35:47 pm by klickitat jim »

Offline charles1968

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 05:13:00 pm »
If you're aiming to make British style IPA, 200 ppm sulphate is on the low side (see table at bottom here: https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/water-water-everywhere/).

Sulphate is balanced by chloride (what's your Cl level in ppm?) and sweetness from malt, so there isn't really a personal limit as such - what tastes right depends on how much caramel/crystal malt is used and how much chloride is in the water.

1060 OG is not typical of British IPA. Over here IPAs are about 4.5% abv, but 1060 will give you more than 6% abv. That's really an American IPA, which is a valid style but stronger than the British version. I'm not sure what SO4 level would suit a 6+ abv beer, but the table on the Murphy's website applies to weaker beers.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 05:42:40 pm »
If you're aiming to make British style IPA, 200 ppm sulphate is on the low side (see table at bottom here: https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/water-water-everywhere/).

Sulphate is balanced by chloride (what's your Cl level in ppm?) and sweetness from malt, so there isn't really a personal limit as such - what tastes right depends on how much caramel/crystal malt is used and how much chloride is in the water.

1060 OG is not typical of British IPA. Over here IPAs are about 4.5% abv, but 1060 will give you more than 6% abv. That's really an American IPA, which is a valid style but stronger than the British version. I'm not sure what SO4 level would suit a 6+ abv beer, but the table on the Murphy's website applies to weaker beers.
Thanks, I'll look back on this later I'm sure. I'm not ever going to get a real fresh English IPA. So I'll never really know what they are like. I don't try to brew "to style", but loosely refer to my beers by the closest style. Otherwise how else would we describe them.

You cause an interesting thought though. These recipe software deals that look at OG, FG, ABV, and IBU, maybe ought to also look at hop type, yeast type, and water composition before giving you the little green check mark.

Offline Robert

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 06:14:05 pm »
One take away... If you enter a pale hoppy high SO4 beer, don't be surprised if it gets dinged for oxidation. It's so similar I could easily see a judge thinking that's what it is

That just got me reconsidering my above stated thoughts about further increasing SO4 in this weekend's Pilsner.  Where in the past I thought I had not enough SO4 maybe I just had too much chloride.   May go for something like Yellow Balanced in Bru'n Water.  I want dry but fresh tasting, and balance might be the key to getting the right SO4 character.  In the days of using my natural water, it would be like 1:3 SO4 to Cl,  and my last few RO batches were almost flipped at 2.3:1.  Crisp, but not so fresh tasting.  Kinda dusty and dull.  I'll aim to even them out and keep both well under 100. If ratio is really important and not just quantity, and I think it is.
Rob Stein
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Offline coolman26

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Too much SO4?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2018, 05:01:24 am »
You cause an interesting thought though. These recipe software deals that look at OG, FG, ABV, and IBU, maybe ought to also look at hop type, yeast type, and water composition before giving you the little green check mark.


I couldn’t agree more with this. My normal IPA is an English type. I can’t run my SO4 up in the 250-300 range. I have tried the same water profile and it changes my perception drastically with yeast choice alone. I have always split batches. I split my last IPA with my normal favorite 007, 1056, and 1028 w 250 SO4. This was a brew after doing the same recipe with 150. I love a good IPA, but at 250+, it causes a mineral harshness that I do not like, especially in the 1028. So I totally agree with your thoughts on yeast. I too realize there are a lot of factors that go in the this, but for me, I’m not going over the 150 line.
Everyone finds their sweet spot I guess.


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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2018, 05:51:12 am »
If you're aiming to make British style IPA, 200 ppm sulphate is on the low side (see table at bottom here: https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/water-water-everywhere/).

Sulphate is balanced by chloride (what's your Cl level in ppm?) and sweetness from malt, so there isn't really a personal limit as such - what tastes right depends on how much caramel/crystal malt is used and how much chloride is in the water.

1060 OG is not typical of British IPA. Over here IPAs are about 4.5% abv, but 1060 will give you more than 6% abv. That's really an American IPA, which is a valid style but stronger than the British version. I'm not sure what SO4 level would suit a 6+ abv beer, but the table on the Murphy's website applies to weaker beers.

As Charles has probably seen, I'm routinely castigated on the British forums for the modest mineralization that the Bru'n Water profiles suggest. As noted in that Murphy's table, they recommend far higher mineralization than I've found to be enjoyable. I guess it's a product of what you're used to.
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Offline BitterItDown

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Re: Too much SO4?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2018, 10:30:17 am »
If you're aiming to make British style IPA, 200 ppm sulphate is on the low side (see table at bottom here: https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/water-water-everywhere/).

Sulphate is balanced by chloride (what's your Cl level in ppm?) and sweetness from malt, so there isn't really a personal limit as such - what tastes right depends on how much caramel/crystal malt is used and how much chloride is in the water.

1060 OG is not typical of British IPA. Over here IPAs are about 4.5% abv, but 1060 will give you more than 6% abv. That's really an American IPA, which is a valid style but stronger than the British version. I'm not sure what SO4 level would suit a 6+ abv beer, but the table on the Murphy's website applies to weaker beers.

Makes one wonder if the use of tannins like BrewTan-B is caused by the promotion of low calcium levels (as compared to the levels used by the British).