[klickitat jim]

I suspect a combo of small things adding up to the total problem.

I know jamil calls for a 90 min boil. Unnecessary in my opinion, and 'might'  be a tiny contributor to the high FG if you had a hard enough boil for 90 min.

If you think you over pitched, I would not argue with that. It's possible I suppose that also can be a tiny contributor to the high FG.

How do you measure the beer temp? Jamil's temps in the recipes are actual beer temp. If you are measuring ambient or even fermentor surface, there can be quite a difference inside.

I suspect that the greatest contributor to the high FG is a rip roaring fast ferment followed by an abrupt give up. The huge mob had a hot sugary field day and as soon as that was over they dropped before finishing the job.

[MattyAHA]

I suspect a combo of small things adding up to the total problem.

I know jamil calls for a 90 min boil. Unnecessary in my opinion, and 'might'  be a tiny contributor to the high FG if you had a hard enough boil for 90 min.

If you think you over pitched, I would not argue with that. It's possible I suppose that also can be a tiny contributor to the high FG.

How do you measure the beer temp? Jamil's temps in the recipes are actual beer temp. If you are measuring ambient or even fermentor surface, there can be quite a difference inside.

I suspect that the greatest contributor to the high FG is a rip roaring fast ferment followed by an abrupt give up. The huge mob had a hot sugary field day and as soon as that was over they dropped before finishing the job.

Good points, i insulated the probe against the side of the carboy with foil insulation and dish rags. i thought you need a 90 min when using pilsner malts..the ferment did start very fast so maybe not having a good reproduction threw some off flavors and fusels cause i do think i over pitched..i think i will add the sugar to the primary next time

[Robert]

Which yeast and how did you handle it?

wy1388 i made a 2 step starter..first step was 3 liters, second step was 2 liters. my plan was to make more yeast then i needed so i can bank some yeast but due to the fact that this yeast does not floc well i felt like i lost alot of cells when i decanted so in the end i pitched the whole slurry, i am pretty sure i over pitched

Underpitching --> more esters, less fusel alcohol

Overpitching --> less esters, more fusel alcohol

[klickitat jim]

Which yeast and how did you handle it?

wy1388 i made a 2 step starter..first step was 3 liters, second step was 2 liters. my plan was to make more yeast then i needed so i can bank some yeast but due to the fact that this yeast does not floc well i felt like i lost alot of cells when i decanted so in the end i pitched the whole slurry, i am pretty sure i over pitched

Underpitching --> more esters, less fusel alcohol

Overpitching --> less esters, more fusel alcohol

The trouble is what is more esters? More might be just right for a certain style. Seems almost certain that he know what more fusels is lol

[Robert]

Next time:  observe temperatures carefully.  Use a shorter, less intense boil.  Use dextrose (a priming calculator can help you convert the amount from cane sugar, they contribute different amounts of fermentable sugar) but definitely boil it for the last 15 minutes to sterilize and dissolve.  Watch the pitch rate. Be patient.  I bet all the little adjustments add up to a fine beer.

(As for the boil, I brew Pilsners and have learned that the ideal is 45 min, barely over a simmer, lid on until the last 10-15 min with only 4-6% volume reduction.  To do a more intense boil will damage the wort, impairing flavor and long term stability.  90 min rolling boils are another homebrew myth.)

[Robert]

Which yeast and how did you handle it?

wy1388 i made a 2 step starter..first step was 3 liters, second step was 2 liters. my plan was to make more yeast then i needed so i can bank some yeast but due to the fact that this yeast does not floc well i felt like i lost alot of cells when i decanted so in the end i pitched the whole slurry, i am pretty sure i over pitched

Underpitching --> more esters, less fusel alcohol

Overpitching --> less esters, more fusel alcohol

The trouble is what is more esters? More might be just right for a certain style. Seems almost certain that he know what more fusels is lol

Yeah, what I pointed out is the natural result of increasing or decreasing pitch rate.  Lower rate means more growth, so more esters but maybe healthier yeast, at least in future generations.  Higher rate means less growth, but the population might run out of food and living space too quick. They get stressed, make fusel alcohol , and likely crap out and underattenuate.  Which sounds like what happened here.

[dmtaylor]

90 min rolling boils are another homebrew myth.)

It's not so much a myth, as it is a historical problem that no longer exists anywhere in the 21st century.

[MattyAHA]

this is all brand new information to me, in almost every brewing literature i have read states that boiling with the lid on is a no no and that a 90 min or at least 75 minute boil to drive off DMS precursors for pilsner malt..so for my next go boil for 45 mins and leave the cover until the last 15 minutes? i never like my boils too violent  i always keep a nice churning boil not flying out of the pot boils. from my own knowledge and the knowledge you all shared trying to troubleshoot why this batch failed i think overpitching and not allowing a good healthy growth from the first few days of fermentation and stressing the yeast..next time im gonna try adding sugar in the fermenter, let it mow down on the maltose first and of coarse proper pitch rate..the info about the 45 minute lid on boil scares me, its been embedded in my mind not to do that, but whatever it takes to make a great belgian golden strong i will  be open to try..its a dream to have cases of great bgsa just chilling in the cellar

[MattyAHA]

Also just want to thank all of you for chiming in, cheers

[Robert]

this is all brand new information to me, in almost every brewing literature i have read states that boiling with the lid on is a no no and that a 90 min or at least 75 minute boil to drive off DMS precursors for pilsner malt..so for my next go boil for 45 mins and leave the cover until the last 15 minutes? i never like my boils too violent  i always keep a nice churning boil not flying out of the pot boils. from my own knowledge and the knowledge you all shared trying to troubleshoot why this batch failed i think overpitching and not allowing a good healthy growth from the first few days of fermentation and stressing the yeast..next time im gonna try adding sugar in the fermenter, let it mow down on the maltose first and of coarse proper pitch rate..the info about the 45 minute lid on boil scares me, its been embedded in my mind not to do that, but whatever it takes to make a great belgian golden strong i will  be open to try..its a dream to have cases of great bgsa just chilling in the cellar

It takes a good 30 mins at heat for the precursor  to form DMS,  so you can't drive it off till then.  Then 10-15 min is plenty to take the lid off and drive it off.  Also, modern Pils malts are processed to have very low precursor levels in the first place.  It isn't a real problem these days.

Again, you want to boil the sugar to sterilize it.  The yeast will eat the maltose first, it's easier for them. Then they'll get around to the glucose. Kettle sugar is usually added 15 min before the end of boil.  That is enough, and the lower wort gravity until then helps increase hop utilization.

[MattyAHA]

this is all brand new information to me, in almost every brewing literature i have read states that boiling with the lid on is a no no and that a 90 min or at least 75 minute boil to drive off DMS precursors for pilsner malt..so for my next go boil for 45 mins and leave the cover until the last 15 minutes? i never like my boils too violent  i always keep a nice churning boil not flying out of the pot boils. from my own knowledge and the knowledge you all shared trying to troubleshoot why this batch failed i think overpitching and not allowing a good healthy growth from the first few days of fermentation and stressing the yeast..next time im gonna try adding sugar in the fermenter, let it mow down on the maltose first and of coarse proper pitch rate..the info about the 45 minute lid on boil scares me, its been embedded in my mind not to do that, but whatever it takes to make a great belgian golden strong i will  be open to try..its a dream to have cases of great bgsa just chilling in the cellar

It takes a good 30 mins at heat for the precursor  to form DMS,  so you can't drive it off till then.  Then 10-15 min is plenty to take the lid off and drive it off.  Also, modern Pils malts are processed to have very low precursor levels in the first place.  It isn't a real problem these days.

Again, you want to boil the sugar to sterilize it.  The yeast will eat the maltose first, it's easier for them. Then they'll get around to the glucose. Kettle sugar is usually added 15 min before the end of boil.  That is enough, and the lower wort gravity until then helps increase hop utilization.

Also thats another thing about the shorter, less vigourous boil is hop utilization thats enough to get the goodness out of the hops? again im stuck on the classic 60-90 min boil mindset

[Robert]

Hop utilization maxes out at 60 min, and the research shows you actually start to LOSE bitterness after that.  With pellets, you're getting close to max at 45, but go 60 if you want. I add the bittering addition as FWH, so 45 is good. 

[majorvices]

Thank you all for the replies, the beer is jamil's duvel clone recipe, i pitched low at around 60F ,was targeting 64 but over cooled my wort, aerated with pure o2, pitched a starter i stepped up, let the ferment warm to 64F held for 48 hours, the krausen fell at around the 48 hour mark also. then i started ramping the temps 2 degrees per day until i hit 80F, i held it at 80F for about a week, the FG stopped at 1012 (which is part of the problem) and i got some o2 in he fermenter during cold crashing. I really dont know what happened to cause it to taste this alcoholic and hot there is nothing in this beer that resembles a belgian golden strong let alone duvel, the whole process i took as much care as possible following the recipe and temperture controlled fermentation, above and beyond for cleaning/sanitation

oh yeah i mashed at 149F for 2 hours by the end of the 2 hours it was at arounf 146-147F, 90 minute boil, mash ph was 5.4, i used brun water and my base water was distilled and i added gypsum and calcium chloride to match the yellow balanced profile, i used 5oz of acid malt to help adjust mash ph..all in all i feel i did everything right but the beer is horrible so its hard to figure out where i went wrong with the process thank you i hope i can diagnose what i did wrong cause this is not the first time i screwed up a duvel clone

4
Sounds to me like you nailed this. Agree to let it sit for another week or so.

[tommymorris]

I would let age for 3 months in the carboy.  Raising the fermentation temp to 80F can create boozy, hot flavors, but these flavors do mellow.  Nothing will make the sherry flavor go away.

3 months? Why so long? I have never left a beer in the fermenter longer than 4 weeks.

[kramerog]

I would let age for 3 months in the carboy.  Raising the fermentation temp to 80F can create boozy, hot flavors, but these flavors do mellow.  Nothing will make the sherry flavor go away.

3 months? Why so long? I have never left a beer in the fermenter longer than 4 weeks.

Because I think of this beer being more similar to mead in terms of need for aging than a regular beer at this time. Mead at the end of fermentation is hot and boozy at the end of fermentation but 3 months later it is ready to drink.

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