Author Topic: Why Do we Lager  (Read 1172 times)

Offline Ellismr

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Why Do we Lager
« on: March 14, 2018, 10:53:25 AM »
I understand that the cold temperatures and time aid in clarifying the beers. I’m wondering if anyone has used a fining like biofine and was able to reduce lagering time to 2 weeks instead of the traditional 4 weeks.  Thanks.


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Offline 802Chris

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 11:14:27 AM »
http://www.brulosophy.com

Poke around for "fast lager method" and "fining with gelatin".

Exactly as you predicted, clarifying agents can very much act as "liquid time" and can reduce lagering time required.

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 11:57:50 AM »
Yes.  Raising the temperature toward the end of lager fermentation gets you to full attenuation and flavor maturation in about 7 days, then you can cold crash.  (This is how the bigs do it.)  Then cold storage alone will clarify the beer, but fining will hasten it.  I use the 34/70 yeast which is slow to drop bright.  But gelatin shortens the time, and isinglass (like Biofine P019) even more so.  I lager longer than I need to just because of my schedule and when I get around to jumping kegs.  I used to filter, which I've tried to get away from, and of course that does the job instantly.  Just need enough cold time pre-filter to form chill haze.

EDIT I do not have any experience with Biofine Clear, the liquid, vegan product.  Apparently this is silica gel, which I understand  breweries normally use in conjunction with other clarifying agents.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 10:38:05 PM by Robert »
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Offline Ellismr

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 03:00:39 AM »
Thanks for your advice


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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 01:04:48 PM »
On the Ayinger tour it was explained that when their beers hit certain lab and sensory points, they don’t wait, they filter and package it.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 07:43:41 PM »
Did some poking around and found that isinglass is most effective when used in conjunction with silica gel ("auxiliary finings".)  The silica must be added first, forming very large, charged flocs, the isinglass after a few hours to settle them firmly.  "Superkleer KC" is a product that comes as packet of a silica-type product (kieselsol) and one of an isinglass-type (chitosan) ready-mixed.  (Isinglass is a PITA to prepare normally.) It claims to give filter-level clarity in 24-48 hours, and discussions on various forums seem favorable.  I intend to try it in a couple of weeks, and I'll report the results. At least it requires no preparation, unlike gelatin or isinglass!

On the Ayinger tour it was explained that when their beers hit certain lab and sensory points, they don’t wait, they filter and package it.

That's always been my approach:  when it's ready, its ready; from there on, it's not ageing, just getting old! Get it packaged and served as quickly as possible.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 10:57:24 PM »
From a commercial standpoint: The main reason to cold crash a beer is to set the chill haze so that it can be filtered or fined out. Some extended lagering does help the flavors to "round out" according to some. I have no experience with this. I have had doppelbocks ready to drink in a few days of lagering.

Homebrewers OTOH may need to lager beers for extended periods to get them clear.

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 11:05:27 PM »
Majorvices, i know you centrifuge and filter, IIRC.   Any insights on the fining agents I've mentioned above?  Esp. The silica/isinglass combo, as opposed to single agents?
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 12:14:14 AM »
Yes.  Raising the temperature toward the end of lager fermentation gets you to full attenuation and flavor maturation in about 7 days, then you can cold crash.  (This is how the bigs do it.)  Then cold storage alone will clarify the beer, but fining will hasten it.  I use the 34/70 yeast which is slow to drop bright.  But gelatin shortens the time, and isinglass (like Biofine P019) even more so.  I lager longer than I need to just because of my schedule and when I get around to jumping kegs.  I used to filter, which I've tried to get away from, and of course that does the job instantly.  Just need enough cold time pre-filter to form chill haze.

EDIT I do not have any experience with Biofine Clear, the liquid, vegan product.  Apparently this is silica gel, which I understand  breweries normally use in conjunction with other clarifying agents.

My experience is gelatin works pretty well, although I don't use it all the time.

With regards to vegan/non animal product concerns, I think there was an interview with a Rabbi on the Session where he stated gelatin was kosher. I believe his logic was that it all dropped out of the beer, and didn't stay in the final product. I guess I would kind of view isinglass way. I'd be interested to hear how the experiment goes regardless.

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2018, 12:27:57 AM »
I have seen a lot of threads on forums that conclude that any "processing aid" that is not present in the beer doesn't violate Kosher/vegan etc rules.  But some very strict interpreters avoid deriving any benefit, however remote, from proscribed ingredients. (E.g. some refuse gasoline with corn ethanol during Passover, I understand.)  So best to disclose its use to those who may be offended.  BTW similar argument is often used in Germany to reconcile many substances with Reinheitsgebot.

EDIT Chitosan is another issue.  It is collagen, same as isinglass.  But while conventional isinglass is derived from fish bladders, chitosan is derived from  the shells of shrimp.  I have not seen a conclusive answer to how this may affect those with shellfish allergies.  That could be far worse than the fact that shellfish aren't Kosher.  Disclosure is prudent.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 12:33:55 AM by Robert »
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 02:33:15 PM »
Majorvices, i know you centrifuge and filter, IIRC.   Any insights on the fining agents I've mentioned above?  Esp. The silica/isinglass combo, as opposed to single agents?

No I'm not really familiar with that. I know that when I use biofine in a 5 gallon corny it will drop crystal clear over night at 32-38 degrees. The key is to mix it thoroughly. It is amazing stuff and not sure why every homerewer isn't using it. Before the centrifuge that is what I used and then use a pump to recric. But with a 5 gallon corny a good shake is all you need.

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2018, 03:14:23 PM »
Majorvices, i know you centrifuge and filter, IIRC.   Any insights on the fining agents I've mentioned above?  Esp. The silica/isinglass combo, as opposed to single agents?

No I'm not really familiar with that. I know that when I use biofine in a 5 gallon corny it will drop crystal clear over night at 32-38 degrees. The key is to mix it thoroughly. It is amazing stuff and not sure why every homerewer isn't using it. Before the centrifuge that is what I used and then use a pump to recric. But with a 5 gallon corny a good shake is all you need.
Which Biofine, Clear (silica) or P19 (isinglass)?  I think Clear is also called A3.  They really need to clear this up.  Pun intended.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2018, 05:42:53 PM »
Sorry the A3 Clear. I was thinking typing that and forgot

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2018, 10:21:53 PM »
UPDATE
I fined with kieselsol (same as Biofine Clear) and chitosan (like isinglass) according to the directions.   It is supposed to clear in 24-48 hours.  LHBS owner says it's as close to filtration as he's found.  Well, after 48 hours sample from keg is extremely cloudy.  (Temperature has been -1°C since 10 days before fining.)  I suspected it would probably take as long as gelatin or isinglass, so I don't plan to rack for a week.  I'll report if the beer is any clearer than with gelatin.
Rob
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Offline Philbrew

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 08:57:23 PM »
Majorvices, i know you centrifuge and filter, IIRC.   Any insights on the fining agents I've mentioned above?  Esp. The silica/isinglass combo, as opposed to single agents?

No I'm not really familiar with that. I know that when I use biofine in a 5 gallon corny it will drop crystal clear over night at 32-38 degrees. The key is to mix it thoroughly. It is amazing stuff and not sure why every homerewer isn't using it. Before the centrifuge that is what I used and then use a pump to recric. But with a 5 gallon corny a good shake is all you need.
I'll have to try it.  Is this in a serving corny or an intermediate step?
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