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Author Topic: Why Do we Lager  (Read 4887 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2018, 03:56:25 pm »
Majorvices, i know you centrifuge and filter, IIRC.   Any insights on the fining agents I've mentioned above?  Esp. The silica/isinglass combo, as opposed to single agents?

No I'm not really familiar with that. I know that when I use biofine in a 5 gallon corny it will drop crystal clear over night at 32-38 degrees. The key is to mix it thoroughly. It is amazing stuff and not sure why every homerewer isn't using it. Before the centrifuge that is what I used and then use a pump to recric. But with a 5 gallon corny a good shake is all you need.
I'll have to try it.  Is this in a serving corny or an intermediate step?
I rack to a corny with a trimmed dip tube and fine in that, then rack to a serving corny (full length tube) and carbonate.  Leaves me free to move the serving keg around without stirring up sludge.

Another tip.  I do all closed transfers and sampling; from pitching until it's in my glass, no exposure to the outside world (O2 OCD.)  So how to fine?  Open PRV, remove gas post, quickly introduce finings with a syringe, gas post back on, flush headspace with gas, close PRV.  If anybody has a better idea, let me hear it!
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:04:28 pm by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2018, 06:56:20 pm »
UPDATE
I fined with kieselsol (same as Biofine Clear) and chitosan (like isinglass) according to the directions.   It is supposed to clear in 24-48 hours.  LHBS owner says it's as close to filtration as he's found.  Well, after 48 hours sample from keg is extremely cloudy.  (Temperature has been -1°C since 10 days before fining.)  I suspected it would probably take as long as gelatin or isinglass, so I don't plan to rack for a week.  I'll report if the beer is any clearer than with gelatin.
Drew another sample today, still some significant suspended matter, but second pull starting to clear.  I started at the high-end of the dosage recommendations,  so I may have created excess "fluffy bottom."  Plan to rack to serving keg tomorrow, carbonate and give it till the weekend to settle there before tapping.  So far I'm not seeing an advantage over gelatin or isinglass.  Others obviously have different experiences.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2018, 06:21:15 am »
UPDATE
I fined with kieselsol (same as Biofine Clear) and chitosan (like isinglass) according to the directions.   It is supposed to clear in 24-48 hours.  LHBS owner says it's as close to filtration as he's found.  Well, after 48 hours sample from keg is extremely cloudy.  (Temperature has been -1°C since 10 days before fining.)  I suspected it would probably take as long as gelatin or isinglass, so I don't plan to rack for a week.  I'll report if the beer is any clearer than with gelatin.
Drew another sample today, still some significant suspended matter, but second pull starting to clear.  I started at the high-end of the dosage recommendations,  so I may have created excess "fluffy bottom."  Plan to rack to serving keg tomorrow, carbonate and give it till the weekend to settle there before tapping.  So far I'm not seeing an advantage over gelatin or isinglass.  Others obviously have different experiences.

That's odd. I can have crystal clear beer in 24-48 hours with just the BCA3 in a 5 gallon corny.

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2018, 06:40:32 am »
^^^^
Yeah, this is my experience with all finings. As I said I may have overdosed this one, and it may have something to do with particularly powdery yeast (34/70 as 2124.) Anyway, the result is consistent, as some people get faster results with other finings too.  Today I'm going to dose a keg with isinglass and just give it time.  I'll have 3 in a row to compare that way: gelatin, kieselsol/chitosan, and isinglass.  They all get the job done with time, just interested if there's a definitive advantage to any one.

EDIT  Racked to serving keg, indeed a lot of fluffy sediment in the lagering/fining keg, a little of which will have carried over.  Not sure this stuff would ever settle nice and hard like isinglass.  Anyone trying it may want to start with small doses.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 08:01:02 am by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2018, 12:20:12 pm »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned PVPP. It works well in conjunction with gelatin. Lagers can be completely polished in as little as 1-2 weeks. PVPP (PolyClar or Divergan F) removes the tannins that cause chill haze without removing any proteins. It was developed for breweries in Germany and is filtered out prior to packaging. It does need the yeast to be dropped to work more effectively, so a treatment of gelatin 24 hours after crash cooling and then 24 hours after the gelatin, treat with PVPP. It drops to the bottom and forms a firm layer on the bottom of the secondary.

If I could figure out how to attach a photo I would.


Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2018, 12:26:30 pm »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned PVPP. It works well in conjunction with gelatin. Lagers can be completely polished in as little as 1-2 weeks. PVPP (PolyClar or Divergan F) removes the tannins that cause chill haze without removing any proteins. It was developed for breweries in Germany and is filtered out prior to packaging. It does need the yeast to be dropped to work more effectively, so a treatment of gelatin 24 hours after crash cooling and then 24 hours after the gelatin, treat with PVPP. It drops to the bottom and forms a firm layer on the bottom of the secondary.

If I could figure out how to attach a photo I would.
I used to use PVPP and filter it out, but realized two things:  I didn't have a chill haze problem in a properly mashed beer from good malt, and if I did, once chill haze is formed it can easily be removed with other finings or filtration;  and PVPP removes quite a lot of hop bitterness as well as aroma, and is as such also detrimental to foam.  My experience at least.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2018, 12:48:51 pm »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned PVPP. It works well in conjunction with gelatin. Lagers can be completely polished in as little as 1-2 weeks. PVPP (PolyClar or Divergan F) removes the tannins that cause chill haze without removing any proteins. It was developed for breweries in Germany and is filtered out prior to packaging. It does need the yeast to be dropped to work more effectively, so a treatment of gelatin 24 hours after crash cooling and then 24 hours after the gelatin, treat with PVPP. It drops to the bottom and forms a firm layer on the bottom of the secondary.

If I could figure out how to attach a photo I would.
I used to use PVPP and filter it out, but realized two things:  I didn't have a chill haze problem in a properly mashed beer from good malt, and if I did, once chill haze is formed it can easily be removed with other finings or filtration;  and PVPP removes quite a lot of hop bitterness as well as aroma, and is as such also detrimental to foam.  My experience at least.
I have actually tried to drop bitterness in a beer I over hopped with PVPP, but it made very little difference. It does target tannins, so I don't use it on Pale Ale/IPA's because those shouldn't be polished anyway. I do use it on pilsners and have no problems with bitterness or aroma. The dosage should be kept at 10-12 grams per 5 gallons or it can lead to stripping. But I think the dosage would have to be really high.

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2018, 12:59:21 pm »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned PVPP. It works well in conjunction with gelatin. Lagers can be completely polished in as little as 1-2 weeks. PVPP (PolyClar or Divergan F) removes the tannins that cause chill haze without removing any proteins. It was developed for breweries in Germany and is filtered out prior to packaging. It does need the yeast to be dropped to work more effectively, so a treatment of gelatin 24 hours after crash cooling and then 24 hours after the gelatin, treat with PVPP. It drops to the bottom and forms a firm layer on the bottom of the secondary.

If I could figure out how to attach a photo I would.
I used to use PVPP and filter it out, but realized two things:  I didn't have a chill haze problem in a properly mashed beer from good malt, and if I did, once chill haze is formed it can easily be removed with other finings or filtration;  and PVPP removes quite a lot of hop bitterness as well as aroma, and is as such also detrimental to foam.  My experience at least.
I have actually tried to drop bitterness in a beer I over hopped with PVPP, but it made very little difference. It does target tannins, so I don't use it on Pale Ale/IPA's because those shouldn't be polished anyway. I do use it on pilsners and have no problems with bitterness or aroma. The dosage should be kept at 10-12 grams per 5 gallons or it can lead to stripping. But I think the dosage would have to be really high.
My experience is with Pilsner, and with dosage of 50g/hL, still experienced stripping.  I would just let cold temps form any chill haze and then physically remove it. That's what lagering is for, but the question at hand was how to speed up precipitation.  I'm leaning toward good old isinglass or gelatin.  And proper materials and process to minimize the need for clarification beyond yeast removal. No longer a fan of PVPP or filtration, but YMMV.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2018, 08:15:31 pm »
^^^^
Yeah, this is my experience with all finings. As I said I may have overdosed this one, and it may have something to do with particularly powdery yeast (34/70 as 2124.) Anyway, the result is consistent, as some people get faster results with other finings too.  Today I'm going to dose a keg with isinglass and just give it time.  I'll have 3 in a row to compare that way: gelatin, kieselsol/chitosan, and isinglass.  They all get the job done with time, just interested if there's a definitive advantage to any one.

EDIT  Racked to serving keg, indeed a lot of fluffy sediment in the lagering/fining keg, a little of which will have carried over.  Not sure this stuff would ever settle nice and hard like isinglass.  Anyone trying it may want to start with small doses.
Okay, update on kieselsol/chitosan combo.  Tapped keg.  Hazy.  Better results faster and easier (and cheaper) with isinglass, even gelatin.  Big case of YMMV I guess, but I see no advantage in this. I'm sticking with the other stuff.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2018, 10:54:33 pm »
^^^^
Yeah, this is my experience with all finings. As I said I may have overdosed this one, and it may have something to do with particularly powdery yeast (34/70 as 2124.) Anyway, the result is consistent, as some people get faster results with other finings too.  Today I'm going to dose a keg with isinglass and just give it time.  I'll have 3 in a row to compare that way: gelatin, kieselsol/chitosan, and isinglass.  They all get the job done with time, just interested if there's a definitive advantage to any one.

EDIT  Racked to serving keg, indeed a lot of fluffy sediment in the lagering/fining keg, a little of which will have carried over.  Not sure this stuff would ever settle nice and hard like isinglass.  Anyone trying it may want to start with small doses.
Okay, update on kieselsol/chitosan combo.  Tapped keg.  Hazy.  Better results faster and easier (and cheaper) with isinglass, even gelatin.  Big case of YMMV I guess, but I see no advantage in this. I'm sticking with the other stuff.
Perfect is the enemy pretty darn good?

Offline BrewBama

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Why Do we Lager
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2018, 05:44:26 am »
Perfect is the enemy pretty darn good?

+1. Perfect IS the enemy of good. I’ll still fine with gelatin as long as I can find it at the grocery store down the street. (They keep moving stuff)


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« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 11:50:28 am by BrewBama »

Offline Robert

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Re: Why Do we Lager
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2018, 07:13:39 am »
That's my conclusion -- if it ain't broke don't fix it!  Which means if some people are cool with waiting longer, it's  cool if they don't even bother with gelatin. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.