[Robert]

Thanks, Jim! 
Blatz,  if you look up in the thread, that's my idea more or less.  Use some of my chilled wort while the fermenter cools the rest of the way to pitch temp (4-5 hours.)  I think it's simpler, but also I don't want a liter of "foreign" wort in a light lager.  In Jim's big stouts and barley wines, not a concern.

[blatz]

Cool. It's not been boiled?

not it has, I might not have communicated well in my previous post.  Make your wort as you usually would.  Chill.  While running off, divert some of the wort to a flask as noted, etc.

only negative (for some) is that they like to be done-done-done with the batch once they complete their run off.  I don't mind this method, and I prefer to be dumping the actual batch into itself, rather than unhopped starter wort.  it also gives me time to let the main wort settle and I can dump out the bottom any settled trub that made it through.  I also start very early in the morning, so its usually pitching time mid afternoon, which isn't a problem for me.

[blatz]

Thanks, Jim! 
Blatz,  if you look up in the thread, that's my idea more or less.  Use some of my chilled wort while the fermenter cools the rest of the way to pitch temp (4-5 hours.)  I think it's simpler, but also I don't want a liter of "foreign" wort in a light lager.  In Jim's big stouts and barley wines, not a concern.

sorry I didn't follow that was what you were doing.  its a really good method for me and my timing/process as you mention.

[klickitat jim]

Not sure what all the worry about foreign wort is. If I can get a 42 from 3 grand master judges on a Munich Helles using foreign wort, I'm convinced it's not a concern. But, maybe using original beer wort would make it a 43?

Just make sure your starter wort is at or below target fermentation temp before you add your oxygen and yeast, and that it's active when you pitch it to the main beer.

[klickitat jim]

Thanks, Jim! 
Blatz,  if you look up in the thread, that's my idea more or less.  Use some of my chilled wort while the fermenter cools the rest of the way to pitch temp (4-5 hours.)  I think it's simpler, but also I don't want a liter of "foreign" wort in a light lager.  In Jim's big stouts and barley wines, not a concern.

sorry I didn't follow that was what you were doing.  its a really good method for me and my timing/process as you mention.

I'm all good with that, no doubt it works awesome. I'm lazy and impatient.

[Robert]

Not sure what all the worry about foreign wort is. If I can get a 42 from 3 grand master judges on a Munich Helles using foreign wort, I'm convinced it's not a concern.

Just make sure your starter wort is at or below target fermentation temp before you add your oxygen and yeast, and that it's active when you pitch it to the main beer.

That temp part is the one thing I'm still thinking over.  Normally when I repitch, the yeast is colder as it's been in the fermentation fridge near freezing as the fermenter makes it from ~60°F (wort chiller) to 50°F (pitch.)  That seems too cold to get it active, as would be the lagering freezer (29°F) or keezer (38°-40°F.)  Room temp it would get active, then be knocked out at pitching.  I still have some things to work out before this is a sure option for me, till then I'll repitch 3-4 day old slurry.  But Denny' s convinced me not to bother rinsing. 

One thing I like about the vitality idea for a lager is, it is in principle a lot like Darauflassen.  Same goal, keeping yeast in the growth phase as long as possible, and similar method.   Just that the two worts are in different proportions.

EDIT Other thing I don't like about foreign wort, not that it's foreign, I just don't want to bother making a separate dme wort.  I'm not a guy who cans a year's worth of it, because I only make a starter once a year or so!

[klickitat jim]

Not sure what all the worry about foreign wort is. If I can get a 42 from 3 grand master judges on a Munich Helles using foreign wort, I'm convinced it's not a concern.

Just make sure your starter wort is at or below target fermentation temp before you add your oxygen and yeast, and that it's active when you pitch it to the main beer.

That temp part is the one thing I'm still thinking over.  Normally when I repitch, the yeast is colder as it's been in the fermentation fridge near freezing as the fermenter makes it from ~60°F (wort chiller) to 50°F (pitch.)  That seems too cold to get it active, as would be the lagering freezer (29°F) or keezer (38°-40°F.)  Room temp it would get active, then be knocked out at pitching.  I still have some things to work out before this is a sure option for me, till then I'll repitch 3-4 day old slurry.  But Denny' s convinced me not to bother rinsing. 

One thing I like about the vitality idea for a lager is, it is in principle a lot like Darauflassen.  Same goal, keeping yeast in the growth phase as long as possible, and similar method.   Just that the two worts are in different proportions.

With lagers, I take my jar of canned 1.040 and put it in the fermentation chamber at 50F the night before brew day. Morning of brew day I oxygenate the starter and pitch my smack pack, leave it in the 50F fermentation chamber while I brew. Lager starters are always active at about 10-12 hrs. I think that slight extra time is largely due to the cooler wort having ability to retain co2 better. Meaning, it's probably active just as soon as an ale pitch, but harder to see that activity.

I do this because I feel that once yeast is active temperature becomes more important. I don't like the idea of dumping a 70F little starter of active yeast into full batch of beer wort that is 20° colder. I don't want to shock it.

I have been doing this method for about 4 years, ales from 1.045 to 1.110, and lagers from 1.045 to 1.070. All with the same results. Initially,  with lagers I would use two starters out of fear of not having enough yeast. But I quickly learned that was unnecessary.

[Robert]

Yep, I just have to find a 50°F spot.  I'm not gonna get a mini fridge just to do this!  Seemed so simple, now maybe not.  I may have already optimized my procedures for my brewery. 

[klickitat jim]

How do you control fermentation temp?

[Robert]

How do you control fermentation temp?

Good old Johnson Controls thermostatic controller (switches power on and off to the fridge, which you keep at its coldest setting.) Got one on each freezer and fridge;  if you saw the pics of my Speidel you can see the probe on the right side.  So I control ambient temp. The controller allows a 4 degree swing because the temperature of liquid, with higher thermal mass, is slow to change; this keeps the temp in the fermenter (keg, etc.) perfectly steady without short cycling the compressor.  I just bypass the controller (unplug it) to crash the wort to pitch temp or to crash the post ferment beer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oEaZ0Jw9_2pDzMyyEuJHtr4ddhrmWpEk/view?usp=drivesdk

[klickitat jim]

Why not set your starter in that? Not sure why you'd need a separate fridge. I might be misunderstanding somethinh

[Robert]

Why not set your starter in that? Not sure why you'd need a separate fridge. I might be misunderstanding somethinh

Yeah, it's set super cold to get down to pitching temp.  AFTER I pitch, I set it to an ambient temp of 46°F, which holds the fermenting beer to 54°F.  So before pitching I've got 3 very cold chambers.  4 if you count the one in the kitchen.  If i held the fermenter at 50°F, the wort would take maybe 12+  hours to reach pitch temp.  And that's nearly when it it would be already very actively fermenting normally!  So for me, for a lager, like I said I might have already optimized things.  In fact, after all these years, I'd like to think things have evolved in sensible, organic fashion!  Sometimes I can't answer why I do things, and then after thinking about it, I realize there is a coherent reason.   It all ties together.

[Robert]

Hey, are we making another unfounded assumption that pitching an active starter into say 20°F colder wort will knock it out cold?  Somebody must know.

[klickitat jim]

Ah! I chill to pitching temp with my chiller.

[Robert]

Ah! I chill to pitching temp with my chiller.

I can't get the last 10-12 degrees for lager.  Just to 60 °F or a little above, seasonally dependant, with the chiller. Ale I'd be good.

See my last question?