Author Topic: Using harvested yeast  (Read 2755 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2018, 10:38:11 PM »
Hey, are we making another unfounded assumption that pitching an active starter into say 20°F colder wort will knock it out cold?  Somebody must know.
I've not tried it. It's info I've picked up from Mark (S. Cerevisiae on AHA) and various other sources like Chris White, Gregg Doss, Zainasheff, Palmer, etc.

Obviously the 20F drop won't kill them. It might-probably could slow their activity and likely extend your lag time. Try it. Might be fine.

Online Robert

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2018, 10:51:17 PM »
Conventional wisdom. If the purpose of the method is to shorten lag (at least in part) what I'm thinking is you wash out your advantage.  But it was some of those same sources that convinced me I had to rinse yeast, or tried to tell me I could only repitch lager yeast 3-5 times (ha!) So I'm waiting for somebody around here to pop another bubble.
Rob Stein
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2018, 11:03:55 PM »
I don't do what I do soley based on an appeal to authority. There are several things, for example, Zainasheff has said that just didn't hold up in my brewery. One would be the claim that cold crashing increases esters 30%. Not in my brewery, at least.

My test is usually
1. Does it make sense?
2. Will it improve my beer?
3. Is it easier, or at least worth the extra effort?
4. Does it actually work for me?

In my current total brewery, the most complicated, effort intense thing I do is closed transfer. So pretty easy brewery
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 11:11:34 PM by klickitat jim »

Online Robert

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2018, 11:11:17 PM »
I sometimes ask myself if I've evolved things to be easier, or if they seem easier because I keep doing them.  It's often the same difference.  You keep learning what to prioritize and what is unnecessary.  My new closed transfer technique is even simpler than the old messy way!
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2018, 11:19:27 PM »
My closed transfer is pretty easy, but still the most complicated thing I do.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2018, 12:01:47 AM »
To go full circle with the thread... Another one of those conventional wisdom things that I have tried a few times in a few different ways is the idea that beer improves with subsequent repitches. There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence that it's true, including from a pile of authorities. I just haven't seen it bear fruit in my brewery. It's no better no worse. So the extra effort, to me, is not worth it. Clearly my one data point of failure is not a reason to toss it. But it's why I don't do it.

Another conventional wisdom is that with huge beers you need a metric butt load of yeast. They might, I dont.

Online Robert

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2018, 12:19:26 AM »
And we're back to the familiar conclusion, do what works for you!  And what we call extra effort may vary.   For me whether or not it improves performace, easy is: hey, I've got all this yeast cake,  why do one more thing.  So, full circle to the OP,  pitch a jar and see what happens.  Or make a starter from one and see what happens. Or don't.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2018, 12:25:38 AM »
Ta da!

Offline denny

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2018, 04:08:22 PM »
I don't do what I do soley based on an appeal to authority. There are several things, for example, Zainasheff has said that just didn't hold up in my brewery. One would be the claim that cold crashing increases esters 30%. Not in my brewery, at least.

My test is usually
1. Does it make sense?
2. Will it improve my beer?
3. Is it easier, or at least worth the extra effort?
4. Does it actually work for me?

In my current total brewery, the most complicated, effort intense thing I do is closed transfer. So pretty easy brewery

You are the heir to my legacy....;)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

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Offline FermentedCulture

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2018, 05:16:10 PM »
In one study I read, repitching of yeast increases esters up to a certain point then it decreases again (around pitch 5-7). As an anecdotal point I think I remember John Kimmich saying Conan reaches a peak around that point in the pitching rates. Not a lot has been written about why but I think one possibility might be the ratio of scarring on yeast cells/age of yeast.

Most of the time the reason stated for not pitching yeast at a big temperature difference of the wort is that the yeast will make heat shock proteins, I've not seen a lot of information about this and I think even Chris White says there's not a lot of information about how that effects the flavour. The only real thing I've seen about them is a recent study about the creation of glycerol, but iirc this was at the high end, like 40-45°C.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2018, 03:40:02 AM »
I don't do what I do soley based on an appeal to authority. There are several things, for example, Zainasheff has said that just didn't hold up in my brewery. One would be the claim that cold crashing increases esters 30%. Not in my brewery, at least.

My test is usually
1. Does it make sense?
2. Will it improve my beer?
3. Is it easier, or at least worth the extra effort?
4. Does it actually work for me?

In my current total brewery, the most complicated, effort intense thing I do is closed transfer. So pretty easy brewery

You are the heir to my legacy....;)
That would be a huge honor, but let's out live the need for it

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2018, 08:50:38 PM »
I like the thought process, Jim, but I have to ask - with the first question, there are a lot of assumptions, no?

So, I like the "questioning the conventional wisdom approach and checking it out for yourself" - and then applying your steps...I would note that while my process has evolved significantly over time, I do tend to ultimately apply a cost/benefit analysis in the end, so I have some very obsolete brewery items that no longer get used.

Great discussion and thanks for sharing with us - I use the vitality starter SNS style quite regularly, but if I am racking an earlier batch from primary on a brew day, I am not opposed to a straight re-pitch.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2018, 09:07:03 PM »
I like the thought process, Jim, but I have to ask - with the first question, there are a lot of assumptions, no?

So, I like the "questioning the conventional wisdom approach and checking it out for yourself" - and then applying your steps...I would note that while my process has evolved significantly over time, I do tend to ultimately apply a cost/benefit analysis in the end, so I have some very obsolete brewery items that no longer get used.

Great discussion and thanks for sharing with us - I use the vitality starter SNS style quite regularly, but if I am racking an earlier batch from primary on a brew day, I am not opposed to a straight re-pitch.
Example: The double mash, at first blush did not make sense to me, but after an explanation of how it works it made enough sense for me to at least try it. It didn't take long for it to pass the rest of my tests

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2018, 09:37:11 PM »
Yeah, the double mash is on my to do list.  I am not an IPA guy, so likely a barley wine or dopplebock to give that a try.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Online Robert

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Re: Using harvested yeast
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2018, 12:21:09 AM »
Well, I stand fully corrected.  Old standard practice not in line with current knowledge.  Not only is my unrinsed yeast very happy, Denny was not quite right in saying rinsing has no benefit.  It is beyond that.  I've done some further reading, and rinsing or storage under water is in fact bad for yeast, in current and future generations, as is any aeration prior to the time of repitching.  So storing under beer and just directly repitching and oxygenating wort is not only easiest, it's best practice.  TBM 4.4.4.3 offers a summary.  I'm happy to skip extra effort.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 12:28:22 AM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.