Author Topic: Water  (Read 810 times)

Offline Pope of Dope

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Water
« on: March 16, 2018, 02:12:55 AM »
Been reading about water. Some I understand, and the rest goes right over my head. I have used bottled Arrowhead water, and more recently a carbon filter from the tap. The beers I produce taste good to me, but wanted to tackle this whole water thing to see if I can improve my beer without of course having to sign up for intro to chem class. Below is my water report. It seems that it switches from two plants, Jenson and Meymouth. I think that some of the numbers are within appropriate range for brewing according to the Palmer book. Also, my understanding is that these ions don't mean much on their own, rather it's the mash pH that ultimatly matters correct? How do you test mash pH? Do you purchase a pH meter ($20 on amazon)? And or should I own something like a LaMotte test kit?  If I  owned a LaMotte kit and tested the water, how easily would I be able to alter the water profile (a dash of gypsum a pinch of calcium chloride)? Finally, can someone make heads or tails over this water report or is it just too vague? I was also looking up online classes on the topic.  Anyone take one and find it helpful, like the one from craft beer & brewing  - $10, or is it likely just an amalgamation of what's already dispersed online on the subject?

Ca+2       Jensen plant: average 33 (ppm),   Meymouth plant average 77 (ppm)
Mg+2       Jensen plant: average 12 (ppm),   Meymouth plant average 26 (ppm)
Alkalinity  Jensen plant: average 94 (ppm),   Meymouth plant average 118 (ppm)
SO4 -2     Jensen plant: average 95 (ppm),   Meymouth plant average 258 (ppm)
Na+1       Jensen plant: average 89 (ppm),   Meymouth plant average 105 (ppm)
Cl-1         Jensen plant: average 93 (ppm),   Meymouth plant average 103 (ppm)
Hardness  Jensen plant: average 129 (ppm), Meymouth plant average 300 (ppm)
pH           Jensen plant: average 8.3,            Meymouth plant average 8.1
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 03:47:44 AM by Pope of Dope »
I like that. Hmm Hmm. "I don't know," that's nice. 'Mr. Hand, will I pass this class?' 'Gee Mr. Spicoli, I don't know.' That's nice, I really like that. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to leave your words on my board for all my classes to enjoy, giving you full credit of course, Mr. Spicoli.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Water
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 12:29:49 PM »
That's typical southern Cal water. Pretty tough to brew with. You are better off diluting all or part of the water with RO.

While proper pH is an appropriate target, that only gets you so far with some styles. The relatively high mineralization of those water sources are not well-suited for brewing lighter and more delicate styles, so dilution needs to be in your toolbox.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Water
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 12:30:45 PM »
You don’t really need to know everything about water to make adjustments to fit a style. Using one of the calculators makes it easier. Just plug in your grain bill, plug in your water report numbers, and choose a water style to build. By adding one ‘salt’ or another you can see the change taking place. You simply add a combination that matches the water profile. It seems more difficult than it is once you start seeing the results of adding a bit of this and a bit of that.

My only recommendation for a calculator is this: I had a bad experience using BeerSmith for acid additions so I do not recommend it for water calculations.

I do not own a home laboratory kit to test my water. Instead I use a blank slate (distilled water) and build from there.

To test the pH you’ll need a pH meter. I use this one: https://www.thermoworks.com/High-Accuracy-pH-Meter-8689




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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Water
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 12:58:22 PM »
Have you read the Water Knowledge Page in Bru’nwater? That should answer some of your questions.
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Offline Pope of Dope

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Re: Water
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 06:04:00 PM »
Brewbama,

can you give me an example? For instance, I use BIAB method, no sparge, and basic IPA grain bill is as follows:
12# american 2row
1# munich
.5# crystal 40

If I were to start from scratch with 7.8 gals of distilled strike water, what exactly would you add?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 06:09:05 PM by Pope of Dope »
I like that. Hmm Hmm. "I don't know," that's nice. 'Mr. Hand, will I pass this class?' 'Gee Mr. Spicoli, I don't know.' That's nice, I really like that. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to leave your words on my board for all my classes to enjoy, giving you full credit of course, Mr. Spicoli.

Offline tommymorris

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Water
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 07:42:44 PM »
Is there a youtube video anyone recommends? That might be easier for the OP. It seems complicated to try to describe how to use Brunwater or similar tool.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 07:51:38 PM by alestateyall »

Offline denny

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Re: Water
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 07:56:02 PM »
Is there a youtube video anyone recommends? That might be easier for the OP. It seems complicated to try to describe how to use Brunwater or similar tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMTA_VmqhbQ

https://accidentalis.com/brun-water-spreadsheet-tutorial-free-edition/

http://accidentalis.com/brun-water-spreadsheet-walkthrough/
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Offline BrewBama

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Water
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 11:08:40 PM »
Brewbama,

can you give me an example? For instance, I use BIAB method, no sparge, and basic IPA grain bill is as follows:
12# american 2row
1# munich
.5# crystal 40

If I were to start from scratch with 7.8 gals of distilled strike water, what exactly would you add?

First off I’m by no means an expert. If I were brewing that grain bill, I’d put your grain bill on the grain bill input tab which gives a 14.9 SRM.

Then I’d move to the water adjustment tab and select Amber balanced (or full or dry depending on your target). I’d also select distilled water. The Amber Balanced profile gives me a target of 50 ppm Cal, 10 ppm Mag, 15 ppm Sodium, 75 ppm Sulfate, 63 ppm Chloride, and 40 ppm Bicarbonate.

I split my mash and sparge 50/50 4 gal mash and 4 gal batch sparge.

Then I start plugging in numbers in the additions blue blocks. After guessing, maneuvering, plugging, and playing, I end up with 1.1 g Gypsum, 1.4 g Cal Chloride, 1.4 g Epsom Salt, and .8 g Baking Soda in the 4 gal mash liquor and 1.1 g Gypsum, 1.4 g Cal Chloride, 1.4 g Epsom Salt in the 4 gal Sparge liquor.

That gets me 50 ppm Calcium, 10 ppm Mag, 15 ppm Sodium, 77 ppm Sulfate (2 ppm high but as close as I could get which is pretty dayum close), 60 ppm Chloride (again 3 ppm low but close is good enough) and 40 ppm Bicarbonate. ...and I see the pH is within range (green) so no acid adjustment required.

For your full boil (no sparge) just increase the mash to full vol and reduce sparge to zero. The spreadsheet will make the calculations for you. I hope this helps.


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« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 11:58:31 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline BrewBama

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Water
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 11:10:06 PM »
Dup. Please delete.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 11:12:37 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Pope of Dope

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Re: Water
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2018, 05:16:22 PM »
Thanks BrewBama.  This helps.  I'm going to cross my fingers and try it.  This way I can learn as I play around with an actual water recipe. There should be a water recipe kit for number illiterate people like me.  I learn by doing.  I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.  I've made the IPA many times with bottled and tap water and will be really interested to taste the difference with this adjusted water profile. Thanks again.  :D

And, Denny, thank you.  The youtube videos are really helpful and didn't know they existed.  I don't know how to use exel and until watching the video didn't even know about the tabs on the bottom of the screen :P.  Big help.  I'm on my way I think. 
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 05:18:52 PM by Pope of Dope »
I like that. Hmm Hmm. "I don't know," that's nice. 'Mr. Hand, will I pass this class?' 'Gee Mr. Spicoli, I don't know.' That's nice, I really like that. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to leave your words on my board for all my classes to enjoy, giving you full credit of course, Mr. Spicoli.

Offline denny

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Re: Water
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 06:01:31 PM »
Thanks BrewBama.  This helps.  I'm going to cross my fingers and try it.  This way I can learn as I play around with an actual water recipe. There should be a water recipe kit for number illiterate people like me.  I learn by doing.  I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.  I've made the IPA many times with bottled and tap water and will be really interested to taste the difference with this adjusted water profile. Thanks again.  :D

And, Denny, thank you.  The youtube videos are really helpful and didn't know they existed.  I don't know how to use exel and until watching the video didn't even know about the tabs on the bottom of the screen :P.  Big help.  I'm on my way I think.

Cool.  Glad I could help.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Water
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2018, 06:26:48 PM »
Thanks BrewBama.  This helps.  I'm going to cross my fingers and try it.  This way I can learn as I play around with an actual water recipe. There should be a water recipe kit for number illiterate people like me.  I learn by doing.  I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.  I've made the IPA many times with bottled and tap water and will be really interested to taste the difference with this adjusted water profile. Thanks again.  :D

And, Denny, thank you.  The youtube videos are really helpful and didn't know they existed.  I don't know how to use exel and until watching the video didn't even know about the tabs on the bottom of the screen :P.  Big help.  I'm on my way I think.

Cool.  Glad I could help.

+1. I look forward to hearing about your success.


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Offline Pope of Dope

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Re: Water
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 10:05:45 PM »
question about pH.  I have figured out some of the brunwater software, using distilled water I manually input the ions in grams to try to get a close match to the recommended profile. Great! But, without sparging (BIAB with no sparge), how can I get my pH in line without throwing everything else off? In other words, my ion ppm numbers are just about perfect for additions, but my pH is at a 5.62 and I want closer to a 5.4.

my water recipe is as follows:
gyps.       3.1g
CaCl2       2g
epsom      3.9g
mag         .8
bak. soda 1.8
I like that. Hmm Hmm. "I don't know," that's nice. 'Mr. Hand, will I pass this class?' 'Gee Mr. Spicoli, I don't know.' That's nice, I really like that. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to leave your words on my board for all my classes to enjoy, giving you full credit of course, Mr. Spicoli.

Offline denny

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Re: Water
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 10:08:11 PM »
question about pH.  I have figured out some of the brunwater software, using distilled water I manually input the ions in grams to try to get a close match to the recommended profile. Great! But, without sparging (BIAB with no sparge), how can I get my pH in line without throwing everything else off? In other words, my ion ppm numbers are just about perfect for additions, but my pH is at a 5.62 and I want closer to a 5.4.

my water recipe is as follows:
gyps.       3.1g
CaCl2       2g
epsom      3.9g
mag         .8
bak. soda 1.8

Send Martin a PM here if he doesn't see your question.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Water
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 10:49:29 PM »
You may just need to add a little acid.  That's down at the bottom under all the salt additions.
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