Author Topic: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B  (Read 554 times)

Offline yso191

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Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« on: March 18, 2018, 09:09:36 PM »
I've been using Brewtan B in the boil but not in the mash.  I'd like to add it to the mash as well, but there are two issues:

1. There is not a 'note' field on the Adjustment Summary sheet of Bru'n Water to remind me to add it with all the other mash additions.  (Yes I actually sometimes require this level of memory aid depending on distractions)

2. Maybe a note field is not the answer, and an additional field on the Water Adjustment page is.  I wonder if I need to have Brewtan B in the calculations of Bru'n Water.  Does Brewtan B effect mash pH or add to any of the water salts that are calculated?

The above is why I have not used Brewtan B in the mash previously.
Steve
All Hands Brewing
BJCP #D1667

Online Robert

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 10:01:42 PM »
It has no effect on pH.  (That was my first question before I used it too!)  So it isn't water treatment in the sense Bru'n Water addresses. I doubt therefore Martin would accommodate it.  That also might constitute a product endorsement he wouldn't want to make.

 I've been using it mash and boil.  I just keep it in the box with all my jars of salts and acid and such; maybe keeping them together would be enough to remind you too.  (I prepare my water the night before brewing.  When I treat the water I also prepare a cup with my dissolved boil addition of Brewtan B, one with my Irish moss and yeast nutrient...all the stuff in the storage box.  Then I don't have to think as much on Brew day!)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline apple

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2018, 01:46:36 PM »
I would put this kind of ingredient on my ingredient list. I use Beersmith and everything goes in there. That way the software tells me what to add and when!

I also have the ADHD brewing handicap! lol

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2018, 04:38:18 PM »
Brewtan B is a gallotannin that does chelate cations from water. As frequently mentioned in research, Brewtan B does remove iron and copper cations from the water, which helps avoid Fenton reactions. However, calcium and magnesium are also cations that succumb to the gallotannin's effects. You can expect a small reduction in concentrations of these ions with Brewtan B usage.
Martin B
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Online Robert

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2018, 06:10:56 PM »
Brewtan B is a gallotannin that does chelate cations from water. As frequently mentioned in research, Brewtan B does remove iron and copper cations from the water, which helps avoid Fenton reactions. However, calcium and magnesium are also cations that succumb to the gallotannin's effects. You can expect a small reduction in concentrations of these ions with Brewtan B usage.
How small a reduction? I haven't seen any noticeable effect on pH or mash, boil and fermentation that would indicate reduced calcium.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline yso191

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2018, 12:47:55 AM »
Yes, I'd like to know too.  That would be important info for the Czech Premium Pale Lager I'm planning to brew with 19 ppm of calcium... which is outside my comfort zone as it is.

Should I drop the BTB for this brew?
Steve
All Hands Brewing
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Online Robert

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2018, 02:47:33 AM »
I'd go with the BTB.   Since I've noticed no ill effects in a number of Pilsners under my comfortable 50ppm Ca, I'm guessing the amount of Ca chelated is real but insignificant. 
EDIT I'm also guessing if we needed to be aware of any effect on Ca, the makers of BTB would put it in the technical information they put out. I find nothing.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 04:00:52 AM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2018, 05:18:26 AM »
Unless you are using calcium free malt, I'll bet there will be plenty left over.

Online Robert

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2018, 11:33:04 AM »
^^^^
10°P wort made w/ DI water has 35ppm Ca, resulting beer still has 33ppm (from Palmer and Kaminski.)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2018, 12:11:31 PM »
I'd go with the BTB.   Since I've noticed no ill effects in a number of Pilsners under my comfortable 50ppm Ca, I'm guessing the amount of Ca chelated is real but insignificant. 
EDIT I'm also guessing if we needed to be aware of any effect on Ca, the makers of BTB would put it in the technical information they put out. I find nothing.

The makers have not, but there are other sources of gallotannin. I don't recall where I saw it, but there is a journal article somewhere that told of calcium drop with gallotannin use. I recall that the level was in the 10 to 20 ppm range. Not enough to really be concerned with. In addition, yeast do not need ANY calcium in the water for them to function well enough. The only concern would be a slowing in the flocculation and clearing of the beer.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Online Robert

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Re: Bru'n Water & Brewtan B
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2018, 12:25:15 PM »
Hmm.  I've been going with BTB and just under 50 ppm Ca, and though I said no problems have surfaced, the beers HAVE been slow to clear.  50ppm should be sufficient for clarification (and oxalate precipitation) but if it's down to 30ppm, that could have an effect.  Think I'll skip the BTB this week and see if the beer clears any faster.  The faster it clears, gets tapped, and gets consumed, the less the concern about long term oxidation effects!

Heck maybe I'll skip the Irish moss too, and see if extra trub carryover really speeds up the whole process.  Have seen suggestion to that effect.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 12:37:22 PM by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.