Author Topic: recirculate mash?  (Read 1663 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2018, 11:45:59 PM »
And so, I gotta ask the logical extension of the foregoing - do you skim break materials?  And do you use an immersion whirlpool chiller?

Not sure what you mean by skim break material.  The foam on the boil is very clean, and anything there is sticks to the collar of the kettle.  Yes, immersion chiller, settle 20-30 min and rack off of all hot and cold break taking (practically) crystal clear wort to the fermenter. There is very, very little trub in the fermenter when I harvest yeast.
Harvesting yeast! Main reason I can see for limiting boil kettle trub to the fermentor.

Another reason would be if I was brewing 10bbl at a time. If I could prevent a bbl of boil trub from getting through, I would. But at my 1/5th bbl size, I only end up with a thin line of boil trub in the bottom of my fermentor. For me... not a problem.

Supposedly a little cold break can nourish yeast, but wort should be nutritious enough as is.  The hot break has the majority of the  nasty lipids and such, so you want to settle long enough to remove that (it's bigger, heavier particles, so easy enough to leave in the kettle with the hop material.)
Likewise, if you swirl up the yeast in your fermenter and let it sit 5 min, you can pour the yeast off the heaviest trub if you do have some.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 11:47:35 PM by Robert »
Rob Stein
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Offline Robert

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2018, 12:05:39 AM »
All of this reminds me of my longstanding impression that making beer is kind of an endless series purifications,  removing stuff until only the beer is left.  Lautering, hot break, cold break, yeast settling, chill haze precipitation, fining, maybe filtering....Like the story of Michaelangelo removing all the obscuring rock until only David was left!
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2018, 06:12:12 PM »
All of this reminds me of my longstanding impression that making beer is kind of an endless series purifications,  removing stuff until only the beer is left.  Lautering, hot break, cold break, yeast settling, chill haze precipitation, fining, maybe filtering....Like the story of Michaelangelo removing all the obscuring rock until only David was left!


Truth, Robert!  Except I think the beer can still be quite satisfactory with a slight blemish or two leading up to fermentation, because the yeast make the final chisel strokes before the polishing strokes of fining.

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Offline narcout

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2018, 07:50:34 PM »
Here are a few interesting excerpts from TB&M.  The first concerns lautering and the last two are about post-boil wort.





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Offline Robert

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2018, 08:02:43 PM »
Note that Kunze does make clear that hot break must be _completely_ removed in order for any cold break material passing into fermentation to be acceptable.  German brewers are able to do this by means of filtration of the hot wort before chilling.  For homebrewers, it is not possible to separate the processes.  So for us, having to remove the break material all at once after chilling, the only option is to remove as much of the combined break material as possible.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2018, 11:36:03 PM »
For homebrewers, it is not possible to separate the processes. 

Not necessarily true. My kettle has a circumferential wort pickup with a steel braid over it that serves as a good filter. I employ this since I pump from the kettle to my plate chiller. That wort is crystal clear coming from the kettle.
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Offline Robert

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2018, 12:06:09 AM »
For homebrewers, it is not possible to separate the processes. 

Not necessarily true. My kettle has a circumferential wort pickup with a steel braid over it that serves as a good filter. I employ this since I pump from the kettle to my plate chiller. That wort is crystal clear coming from the kettle.
I stand corrected.  For those of us who cannot do this, the prudent thing is to remove all break material.  The possible benefits of a little cold break in the fermenter are slim compared to the real detriment of hot break or possibly too much cold break.

EDIT Actually I used to have a pretty effective filter at my disposal.   Whole cone hops!  Then a few years ago I admitted resistance was futile, and followed the rest of the world into pellets.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 12:20:11 AM by Robert »
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Offline trapae

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2018, 12:46:28 AM »
 So is the consensus something like this? ( as far as there can ever ever be a consensus in homebrewing )

 First and second runnings should be as clear as possible.

 Remove ALL of hotbreak.

 Remove as much as possible of cold break?

 How are people effectively removing hotbreak, a fine strainer?
 Also, Martin, where did you get your circumferential wort pick up contraption? Or did you make it?

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Offline Robert

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2018, 01:26:37 AM »
Looks like you've summed up the takeaway pretty well.  The easiest way to remove break, especially the heavier hot break, is to settle and rack off the sediment.   I use an immersion chiller and settle for 20-30 min and can rack off virtually crystal clear wort. If you chill with a cf or plate rig you could use a settling tank, an intermediate vessel on the way to the fermenter, to remove all break, or at least settle the hot break before carefully racking through your chiller (or figure out some kind of hot break filter like Martin.  I'd like to see a pic of his!)  Hot break is coarser and heavier than cold break, so removing it is easier.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2018, 10:49:39 PM »

EDIT Actually I used to have a pretty effective filter at my disposal.   Whole cone hops!  Then a few years ago I admitted resistance was futile, and followed the rest of the world into pellets.

I think I am going to order whole hops for my next brew. That way I don’t have to knife my laugh.


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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2018, 11:02:57 PM »
I need a pint of beyond hazy Knee-Pa called Knife My Laugh! Milkshake doesn't even describe the level of haze thickness. Cheesy with haze. It's basically a hoppy custard!

Offline mabrungard

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2018, 03:22:09 PM »
OK, I placed a new thread and discussion for the peripheral wort intake that I use, at the following location:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31436.0
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Offline Robert

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2018, 03:49:36 PM »
Supposedly a little cold break can nourish yeast, but wort should be nutritious enough as is. 

Just listened to MBAA podcast where Stone did experiments and found that any trub carried over into the fermenter actually had a significant ADVERSE effect on yeast health and fermentation.
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Offline tommymorris

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recirculate mash?
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2018, 04:07:21 PM »
Supposedly a little cold break can nourish yeast, but wort should be nutritious enough as is. 

Just listened to MBAA podcast where Stone did experiments and found that any trub carried over into the fermenter actually had a significant ADVERSE effect on yeast health and fermentation.
That seems to conflict with some of the text scanned from some book that someone put in this thread.

Offline Robert

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Re: recirculate mash?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2018, 05:03:04 PM »
Supposedly a little cold break can nourish yeast, but wort should be nutritious enough as is. 

Just listened to MBAA podcast where Stone did experiments and found that any trub carried over into the fermenter actually had a significant ADVERSE effect on yeast health and fermentation.
That seems to conflict with some of the text scanned from some book that someone put in this thread.
That's Prof Kunze, Technology Malting and Brewing, the standard textbook, and it's the conventional textbook wisdom.  So the Stone experiment surprised me.  I suppose we don't know all the other factors in their system that might contribute.  But it's an interesting piece of evidence, though perhaps no more conclusive than a Brulosophy xBmt.  Stone didn't continue with extensive experiments once they concluded it was affecting their yeast.  They saw no other adverse effects on the beer.
Rob Stein
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