Author Topic: IPA Riddle  (Read 1096 times)

Offline Brutal Eric

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IPA Riddle
« on: March 21, 2018, 07:18:50 PM »
So I've had an issue with my IPA. 1 out of 3 i detect diacetyl. I only notice this on my IPA. And the good ones are really good. Award winning. So diacetyl has two main culprits. Poor Fermentation and Infection. I leave the beer on the yeast for 10-14 days. For 001 this should be plenty. Like I said my other beers are great. So if it was infection, why do I notice 2 days after kegging? Shouldn't it take longer to show up? Also doesnt hops inhibit bacteria growth? I boil everything that comes in contact with the wort minus the SS bucket. Gets scrubbed, PBW then Starsan! I am left scratching my head? I always use mr Malty for my starters. same procedure, PBW, Starsan? I have replaced all of my equipment. Still get diacetyl? It seems to be only on dry hopped beer? I use a all malt grain bill so...  :o

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2018, 07:37:34 PM »
How do you know for sure that it is diacetyl?  Are you or your friends BJCP certified?  Even judges get it wrong half the time.
Dave

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Offline Brutal Eric

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 07:44:12 PM »
18 Months of training my pallet. Last week I was convinced it was grassy. LOL

Yeah I am sending a sample to a lab to inspect for infection and sending one in for a contest. So maybe I'll get a confirmation. When I review the faults list, its the only one that seems close?

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 07:51:04 PM »
All too often in the homebrew world lately I just see people trying to fix problems that don't actually exist.  I can't help but be skeptical when I know how very rare diacetyl is in any American ale.
Dave

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Offline Brutal Eric

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 07:57:51 PM »
I agree, thats why I posted. I was having an issue with a leaking chiller for a while. When I found it, I assumed my troubles were over.  Maybe some of my equipment is permanently ruined? Can't boil everything. Did use a old carboy and racking cane for the latest D bomb. I PBW and starsan but? Maybe its not enough.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 08:13:00 PM »
What was the grain bill? Some British crystal malts have a flavor I feel many incorrectly attribute to diacetyl. 

Any slick mouthfeel? Might be worth buying a bottle of Sam Smith's Nut-Brown Ale to "recalibrate" on diacetyl. (A good off-the-shelf diacetyl "bomb".)
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline Brutal Eric

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 08:18:04 PM »
Had no idea. Will pick up a bottle

Typically
10- 2row
1- Wheat
1- Oats
1- Munich
Non NEIPA
11- 2 row
1-Munich

Offline EnkAMania

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 08:30:52 PM »
Maybe change up your sanitizer. 
Some day we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny

Offline kramerog

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 09:09:09 PM »
When is the last time you cleaned and santized your keg lines?  If your keg line is infected then diacetyl could show up pretty quickly. 

Another possibility could be that fermentation was not entirely complete, but diacetyl was not perceptible, however the precursor acetolactate was still present when you dry hopped.  Dry hopping typically exposes the beer to oxygen which can cause residual acetolactate to oxidize into diacetyl.  This could explain why you are only noticing diacetyl in your dry hopped beers.

These are just some theories.




Offline majorvices

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 01:09:13 AM »
All too often in the homebrew world lately I just see people trying to fix problems that don't actually exist.  I can't help but be skeptical when I know how very rare diacetyl is in any American ale.

Really??? I know tons of breweries and homebrewers brewing diacetyl bomb IPA and Pale Ales. I find it all too common!

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 01:25:48 AM »
All too often in the homebrew world lately I just see people trying to fix problems that don't actually exist.  I can't help but be skeptical when I know how very rare diacetyl is in any American ale.

Really??? I know tons of breweries and homebrewers brewing diacetyl bomb IPA and Pale Ales. I find it all too common!

And some are more sensitive than others.  And some don't drink a lot of IPA.
Dave

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Offline majorvices

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2018, 10:51:03 AM »
So I've had an issue with my IPA. 1 out of 3 i detect diacetyl. I only notice this on my IPA. And the good ones are really good. Award winning. So diacetyl has two main culprits. Poor Fermentation and Infection. I leave the beer on the yeast for 10-14 days. For 001 this should be plenty. Like I said my other beers are great. So if it was infection, why do I notice 2 days after kegging? Shouldn't it take longer to show up? Also doesnt hops inhibit bacteria growth? I boil everything that comes in contact with the wort minus the SS bucket. Gets scrubbed, PBW then Starsan! I am left scratching my head? I always use mr Malty for my starters. same procedure, PBW, Starsan? I have replaced all of my equipment. Still get diacetyl? It seems to be only on dry hopped beer? I use a all malt grain bill so...  :o

Back to your question, most yeasts create diacetyl (VKD) during the fermentation (some more than others) but usually clean it up near end. Highly flocculative strains will often do less diacetyl clean up while powdery strains usually clean up better. But diacetyl can often times reform if o2 is introduced post fermenattion. I am going to guess that either your method of dry hopping or racking is introducing oxygen to beer and that is why you notice it 2 or 3 days later. Or it may be a combination of the 2.

Once of the things you can try is dry hopping during the end of active fermentation while yeast can still take up the o2 introduced when you pour in your hops. Make sure your receiving vessel is well purged with co2.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 12:26:16 PM by majorvices »

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2018, 03:22:18 PM »
They were just talking about diacetyl spikes after dryhopping on the latest MBAA podcast. They were saying that it might be enzymes (glycosides and others) in the hops  that are active and either break down dextrins or split glycosides, then the yeast start to ferment and produce diacetyl.


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Offline kramerog

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2018, 06:04:52 PM »
They were just talking about diacetyl spikes after dryhopping on the latest MBAA podcast. They were saying that it might be enzymes (glycosides and others) in the hops  that are active and either break down dextrins or split glycosides, then the yeast start to ferment and produce diacetyl.


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I just happened to run across that at http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/073-dry-hoppings-correlation-with-diacetyl

Offline hackrsackr

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Re: IPA Riddle
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 06:35:06 PM »
They were just talking about diacetyl spikes after dryhopping on the latest MBAA podcast. They were saying that it might be enzymes (glycosides and others) in the hops  that are active and either break down dextrins or split glycosides, then the yeast start to ferment and produce diacetyl.


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I just happened to run across that at http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/073-dry-hoppings-correlation-with-diacetyl

MBAA is my favorite podcast by far!

Shoutout to John Bryce for keeping it groovy.


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