Author Topic: Shaken not stirred for Lager  (Read 2420 times)

Offline coolman26

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2018, 01:47:38 PM »
Thanks to Flickr it should work now.

I think two factors led to this. 

First was the length of time the warm wort was exposed to the air while it drained into the fermenter.  I will set yet one more hop/trub removal device on the shelf, the last in a line of failed devices.

Second, some time ago I posted that I was done with wet yeast for this very reason.  All the yeast I get here in Yakima is dead or mostly so.  I thought it would be OK ordering from More Beer in CA.  It is Spring so the temperatures are not extreme, and I paid for the most expensive insulated & cooled mailer.  How many times do I need to learn this lesson?!  So I will brew this again, but with DRY YEAST!
I never have fresh yeast on hand. That is why I’ve never tried the shaken. That said, I’ve never had any issue with getting yeast that was damaged in shipping.


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Offline yso191

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2018, 03:06:55 PM »
Here's another thing that is a possibility.  I never used to have issues with yeast until I went with the shaken not stirred method.  But at that same time I decided I would can my starter wort.  I now find myself wondering if my starter wort is killing the yeast.

I cannot imagine how.  I use whole grain 1.040 wort, and pressure can it.  I don't add anything.

It's just a puzzle that I am trying to consider all possibilities for.
Steve
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Offline denny

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2018, 04:53:00 PM »
Here's another thing that is a possibility.  I never used to have issues with yeast until I went with the shaken not stirred method.  But at that same time I decided I would can my starter wort.  I now find myself wondering if my starter wort is killing the yeast.

I cannot imagine how.  I use whole grain 1.040 wort, and pressure can it.  I don't add anything.

It's just a puzzle that I am trying to consider all possibilities for.

Steve, the puzzle to me is how either of those would cause you problems when so many others do them without issue.
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2018, 06:38:19 PM »
I cannot imagine how.  I use whole grain 1.040 wort, and pressure can it.  I don't add anything.

Probably not likely, but it could be some kind of micronutrient deficiency. I use 1 g/gal yeast nutrient when I make wort for propagation.
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Offline yso191

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2018, 11:28:23 PM »
I agree Denny!

Yes I used to add yeast nutrient to my starters, but stopped when I began using starter wort.  Sounds like I have an experiment upcoming!
Steve
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Offline Robert

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2018, 11:45:23 PM »
I use nutrient in starters and, generally, in the brew as well.  At the least, it's harmless, and cheap insurance.  My current line of experimentation is suggesting that cold break material is an even cheaper version of this.

The possibility of micronutrient deficiency leads me to another thought. Is it possible your liquid yeast was not delivered in poor condition,  but that the dry yeast was grown on a medium that ensured an adequate supply of the nutrient missing from your starter?  I'm thinking the reserve such a nutrient the liquid yeast brought with it could have been exhausted in the starter phase, with none carried into the ferment. (Zinc being the obvious prime suspect.)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 12:03:59 AM by Robert »
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Offline JT

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2018, 02:26:38 AM »
Well crap.  The airlock activity didn't increase like it usually does, so I decided to run to the LHBS to get some dry yeast.  I'd concluded that I under-pitched dramatically. THEN... I see this:

Untitled by STEVE HARRISON, on Flickr

I think I have my first infection

 :-\
I see lots of replies to this, but what makes you think this is an infection?  I've had totally normal fermentation begin this way, and you described pitching in a different method than usual so the beginning ferment might look different.  I see no mold here.  What are you smelling?  Did you check pH?  I'm betting you get healthy krausen soon. 

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Offline denny

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2018, 02:32:23 PM »
Well crap.  The airlock activity didn't increase like it usually does, so I decided to run to the LHBS to get some dry yeast.  I'd concluded that I under-pitched dramatically. THEN... I see this:

Untitled by STEVE HARRISON, on Flickr

I think I have my first infection

 :-\
I see lots of replies to this, but what makes you think this is an infection?  I've had totally normal fermentation begin this way, and you described pitching in a different method than usual so the beginning ferment might look different.  I see no mold here.  What are you smelling?  Did you check pH?  I'm betting you get healthy krausen soon. 

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Agreed.  I don't think it looks like an infection necessarily.
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Offline chumley

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2018, 10:40:20 PM »
Yes, those look like yeast colonies to me.  I've seen that several times before.  Never been an infection.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2018, 01:19:40 AM »
Jim,  I'm wondering if my experience is typical to yours. 

I brewed the beer Thursday, 4/26/18.  Pitched yeast @ 21:30, at 50*.  One pack of Wyeast 2206, dated 3/31/18, in Shaken not Stirred method (one Qt. wort).  Which was started at ~12:00... maybe a bit late?
First airlock activity today (4/28) 09:00.   ~36 hours.
My lager starters are about 10C cooler than my ale starters. So they are slower at showing sign of activity to the naked eye. Normally, I see activity in my ale starters at 6-8 hrs. 8-12 hrs for lagers. I see air lock activity, usually, with ales at about 24 hrs. But it could be well before that, I don't look every hour... I usually see airlock activity in my lagers by 36 hrs (Morning after 24 hrs) but...

First visible air lock activity is not the best method of determining end of Lag Phase. If your yeast are visibly active (off gassing co2) in your starter, the mothers have finished budding and are fermenting. Maybe some daughters are too. Some daughters are still budding. Bloop, into the main beer wort... more oxygen... more budding... basically "they" are immediately in Log Phase.

How long until they reach max density, and produce enough co2 to overcome retaining co2 at lower than ale temp, and create enough pressure to bubble your air lock? Dunno... But that's not the end of Lag Phase, start of Log Phase. They've been in Log Phase since you pitched the active starter.

By the way - air lock is not a good indicator of phases.

As to infection? I'm not seeing a pelicle, I'm seeing islands of white stuff that might be yeast rafts, or might be islands of foam, or might be... infection. Hard to say from just a photo

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Offline yso191

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2018, 01:46:33 AM »
Thanks Jim,  You are far more familiar with this yeast than am I.  At this point I'm guessing it is not an infection... I just never see my beer coming out of a lag phase - it may be utterly normal.  The long lag phase and extra long time prior to pitching had me nervous.
Steve
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2018, 01:59:42 AM »
That’s cool man. You don’t need to make a massive starter, but do what you need to do.

Jim, do any lagers lately?
Been a while. I might crank a couple out for summer.

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2018, 02:00:25 AM »
Thanks Jim,  You are far more familiar with this yeast than am I.  At this point I'm guessing it is not an infection... I just never see my beer coming out of a lag phase - it may be utterly normal.  The long lag phase and extra long time prior to pitching had me nervous.
Let us know how it goes

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Offline yso191

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2018, 04:41:30 AM »
Whew!  I just took a sip from the hydrometer vial.  The beer is NOT infected.  It tastes delicious.  Obviously my inexperience of seeing beer come out of the lag phase freaked me out.  One of the down sides of a stainless fermenter.

I'm happy!
Steve
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2018, 04:52:44 AM »
Good deal!