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Author Topic: Experiment tying some threads together  (Read 10757 times)

Offline BitterItDown

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2018, 08:38:47 am »
Today was brew day.  Ca 94, SO4 95, Cl 96, no other minerals or acid, no Brew Tan B, no Irish moss, just WY nutrient.

Was hoping for 150ppm Ca... Phytin reactions plus trub/yeast drop will probably lower that back to max 100ppm.  Will be interesting to know your results.

100ppm Ca used to be my standard before I started getting over-fine with water, using BTB, etc, and results were good, so that's why I chose it.  (Essentially this is going back to my old lager brewing protocols, when I think about it, following very convevtional wisdom:  keep calcium up, alkalinity down, other ions moderate, no Irish moss.  Very old school.)

 My thinking is that about 50% of Ca is lost in the mash, and the sparge (after accounting for the contribution from malt) brings it back to ~85 ppm in the boil, which is more than adequate for protein coagulation, yeast growth and flocculation, oxalate precipitation, etc. Indeed, we'll see.

Yes, but perhaps more would exaggerate the results so-to-speak.  An experiment at various levels (of calcium) would be in order unless someone has a reference to prior work.

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2018, 01:39:06 pm »
Quick update,  but no precise data.... Experimental batch attenuated to FG (no further change) at least 1 day sooner than control,  and appears to have attenuated further -- to the degree I used to expect pre-BTB.  But a precise saccharometer reading will come at racking when it has cleared a bit more.  Right now the beer is cooling in fermenter, I'll rack it to lagering keg in a few days.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2018, 02:47:55 pm »
I have just noticed a serious, but I suppose not fatal, flaw in this experiment.  I used Bru'n Water to work up my water treatment, and just realized that it assumes a significantly higher contribution of calcium (and chloride) from calcium chloride than the figures I have always assumed, which I know from actual tests to be correct.  I'm guessing Bru'n Water assumes the anhydrous salt?  Anyway, rather than 100ppm Ca as intended, I had about 80ppm.  So this is still a proportional  increase over the control, which was also planned with Bru'n Water and so was much lower than what I consider an acceptable calcium level even before chelation by the tannin.  This experiment just isn't the exact one I designed.  Lesson learned, I'll go back to doing my water calculations by hand for now, and more or less follow the intent of this experiment over coming batches.  I'll continue to report on this batch.  If anyone can enlighten me on Bru'n Water and if I can make a correction, please.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline narcout

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2018, 03:05:07 pm »
I'm guessing Bru'n Water assumes the anhydrous salt?

You can toggle among anhydrous, dihydrate and liquid calcium chloride in cell M20 on the Water Adjustment tab.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2018, 03:46:14 pm »
I'm guessing Bru'n Water assumes the anhydrous salt?

You can toggle among anhydrous, dihydrate and liquid calcium chloride in cell M20 on the Water Adjustment tab.
Not in my version, only in the supporters version. Never looked at that part of the instructions till you mentioned that.  Thanks.  I did contribute some time ago, and Martin did send me the file, but Excel has never let me open it, insisting it is password protected (Martin confirms it is not.)  So I just went with the free version.  So for now I'll go back to the way I brewed for over 28 years: with no software.  It helps keep my wetware from getting soft anyway. :)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:58:08 pm by Robert »
Rob Stein
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 07:21:27 am »
Brewed again yesterday, this time with the full 100ppm Ca as intended and no BTB or Irish moss.  (Slightly different recipe.)  Clarity of lautered wort excellent, break excellent, even cold break settled somewhat nicely,  so less trub carryover despite no effort in that direction.  Lag time under 12 hours at 10°C and fermenting vigorously.  It is looking more and more like calcium is, as regarded in conventional wisdom (and my longtime practice,) as close as anything to "magic dust" and other additives are not real "improvements."  Still need to see finished beers.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2018, 09:26:15 am »
Have the second "experimental" batch on tap.  The first was low Ca, Brewtan B, Irish moss, careful trub separation; the second, increased Ca and none of the rest. 

Observations:  As had been the case of late, the first batch had turbidity noticeable in the glass without any special effort, while the second appears brilliant in the glass.   It is not filtration-level clarity, there is some turbidity apparent using a makeshift light box (card with a slit and LED source behind) -- at 90° this is intermediate between two comparisons, Great Lakes Dortmunder Gold and Miller High Life.   The first batch was noticeably hazier than the Dort.  Only my filtered beers have been clearer than the second batch, and this is the level of clarity regularly achieved before I started with the BTB.  The second batch perhaps shows slightly more bitterness, but I'm not ready to relate this to trub carryover, since the hops were from a fresher lot.

My takeaways:

•  Calcium is still the closest thing to magic dust in brewing.  If you choose to use BTB, you should be aware of its chelation of calcium and adjust accordingly.

•  Further study has taught me that BTB has no inherent antioxidant properties, but only forestalls oxidation through chelation of the catalyst, iron.  Since I am using RO water with no iron, this function is irrelevant.

•  This leaves Brewtan B's other possible function to consider, that is, its function as a kettle coagulent.  This experiment, as with others, indicates no detrimental effects from trub carryover as pertains to clarity of the beer; fermentation may be enhanced, and the jury's still out on flavor.

As for me, in subsequent brews I've been incrementally increasing calcium to levels I have found beneficial in the past.  I may use Irish moss and minimize trub just to have cleaner harvested yeast, or not.  I see no need for Brewtan B in my brewery, it is not really helpful in achieving clarity (or, in case of my water, even potentially increased flavor stability.) Hopefully I will not see a need to return to filtering.  (A yeast that drops better than 2124 would probably clear everything up. Literally.)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2018, 09:34:38 am »
•  Further study has taught me that BTB has no inherent antioxidant properties, but only forestalls oxidation through chelation of the catalyst, iron.  Since I am using RO water with no iron, this function is irrelevant.

And copper. Plus it also binds up certain things like lipids and proteins in the mash. All good things for downstream flavor stability.

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2018, 09:58:05 am »
•  Further study has taught me that BTB has no inherent antioxidant properties, but only forestalls oxidation through chelation of the catalyst, iron.  Since I am using RO water with no iron, this function is irrelevant.

And copper. Plus it also binds up certain things like lipids and proteins in the mash. All good things for downstream flavor stability.
My searches indicate it does not in fact bind lipids, but simply removes the catalyst (iron) of their downstream oxidation. I was under the misapprehension it was otherwise.  And copper is a good thing, in some amount.   As for protein coagulation, I notice that DeClerck marked this use of tannic acid as obsolete, and the necessity of the function is questionable.  I've seen a lot of testimonials regarding functions of BTB that are not supported by outside evidence.  I at least find it superfluous, but Ajinomoto's breathless marketing of an old product to new trendseekers is not surprising.  MSG is trending down again. :)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2018, 10:04:35 am »
•  Further study has taught me that BTB has no inherent antioxidant properties, but only forestalls oxidation through chelation of the catalyst, iron.  Since I am using RO water with no iron, this function is irrelevant.

And copper. Plus it also binds up certain things like lipids and proteins in the mash. All good things for downstream flavor stability.
My searches indicate it does not in fact bind lipids, but simply removes the catalyst (iron) of their downstream oxidation. I was under the misapprehension it was otherwise.  And copper is a good thing, in some amount.   As for protein coagulation, I notice that DeClerck marked this use of tannic acid as obsolete, and the necessity of the function is questionable.  I've seen a lot of testimonials regarding functions of BTB that are not supported by outside evidence.  I at least find it superfluous, but Ajinomoto's breathless marketing of an old product to new trendseekers is not surprising.  MSG is trending down again. :)

Let flavor stability be your guide.

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 10:23:20 am »
^^^^
Agreed, Derek.  The subject of my trial here was strictly clarity, and I've presented my experience.   I think I've noted that flavor stability is less relevant (or testable) to me as my beer goes fresh and fast.  I hope I've helped those who do use BTB by pointing out that clarity can suffer if you're not cognizant of its effect on calcium.  Someone should do companion trials on the real impact on flavor stability, but I'm not your huckleberry.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 10:33:36 am »
On Page 178 of “Water” by Palmer and Kaminski there is a table for the ion content of 10P (1.040) wort made with Demineralized Water.

Cu+2= 0.15 ppm wort, 0.12 ppm beer.
Fe+3= 0.11 ppm wort, 0.07 ppm beer

Brewtan-B will help stability with Copper and Iron if used in the kettle.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 11:36:09 am »
On Page 178 of “Water” by Palmer and Kaminski there is a table for the ion content of 10P (1.040) wort made with Demineralized Water.

Cu+2= 0.15 ppm wort, 0.12 ppm beer.
Fe+3= 0.11 ppm wort, 0.07 ppm beer

Brewtan-B will help stability with Copper and Iron if used in the kettle.
But copper at <1ppm is a yeast nutrient, reduces H2S and has positive effects on foam quality.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 12:39:34 pm »
On Page 178 of “Water” by Palmer and Kaminski there is a table for the ion content of 10P (1.040) wort made with Demineralized Water.

Cu+2= 0.15 ppm wort, 0.12 ppm beer.
Fe+3= 0.11 ppm wort, 0.07 ppm beer

Brewtan-B will help stability with Copper and Iron if used in the kettle.
But copper at <1ppm is a yeast nutrient, reduces H2S and has positive effects on foam quality.

OK. I still have some copper parts in my system, and use a copper chiller, so Brewtan-B goes in the kettle. Maybe some copper still gets through, as I haven’t noticed yeast problems.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 09:13:03 pm »
Interesting results. I may consider skipping my flameout addition of gallotannin and just go with my mash water addition to see if it improves my clarity issues.

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