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Author Topic: Experiment tying some threads together  (Read 10756 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 06:01:40 am »
Interesting results. I may consider skipping my flameout addition of gallotannin and just go with my mash water addition to see if it improves my clarity issues.

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My tentative conclusion in this is that you can add gallotannin as you like,  but make sure you have enough calcium after it chelates ... just how much?  We need to know more about this.  My lesson seems to be that gallotannin alone does not promote clarity (but may have other benefits,) while calcium does promote clarity (and of course other benefits. ) So if using gallotannin, I'd overshoot the calcium,  and in fact shoot for a lot more than some stylistic minimum in the first place.  The old brewer's rule of thumb was something like at least 50-100ppm in the mash water, and (after loss of 50% of the Ca in the mash, including that provided by the malt) at least 80ppm in the boil (adding salts to the kettle as needed) to provide enough all the way through into the ferment to ensure yeast health and good clarification.  It seems to me these are still valid targets.
Rob Stein
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Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 06:02:14 am »
Interesting results. I may consider skipping my flameout addition of gallotannin and just go with my mash water addition to see if it improves my clarity issues.

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Some anecdotal observations:

Many of us on our main forum have decided to forego BTB/GT in the boil because we found we just didnt need it. Enough people were still using it there and getting questionable results, enough to where we started trying to troubleshoot and figure out the mechanism. Many claimed that because they were using RO/Distilled and all SS (including the chillers), that the clarity/haze issues were coming from not needing the BTB/GT anymore and since it's polyphenol based that that was the culprit.

So Bryan decided to test this out by using it in the boil. He prepared it per manufacturer instructions and had no issues on multiple batches.

So, short story long: If you decide you need it in the boil, prepare and add it properly (I notice you are adding it at flameout, and that seems a bit late) and report back.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 06:04:33 am by Big Monk »

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2018, 06:05:13 am »
^^^^
FWIW I was using it per manufacturer's instructions.
Rob Stein
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Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2018, 06:09:03 am »
^^^^
FWIW I was using it per manufacturer's instructions.

Yeah, like I said, MANY people were having issues and we ourselves had none.

My anecdote can really only practically apply to us because only we can control our own setups, but user error was the culprit in a few places.

I also target 50 ppm Ca and use Antioxin SBT in the mash, which is only 10% gallotannins.

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2018, 08:16:52 am »
So listening to myself, I guess my next logical step is to try a couple of brews using BTB as previously, with calcium at, say, ~125ppm which should leave ~100ppm after chelation.   If I'm right, I should get the benefit of both tannin and calcium, and have eliminated the recent issue with clarity.  If not, maybe something to the polyphenol idea -- but of course tannin in the bright tank is a well established remedy for protein haze....
Rob Stein
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2018, 10:21:18 am »
Yesterday I re-listened to the MBAA podcast (ep.40) with Joe Formanek on gallotannin and beer stabilization.  For FLAVOR stability, he recommends it at mashing in, where it will chelate "excess" iron and copper -- not all, just "excess," and just how much is not specified.  So far so good.  For COLLOIDAL stability, he says the ideal use is in the bright tank, but if your process won't accommodate,  you can get some benefit with a late kettle addition.  This is where it gets interesting.  He says this addition can be used either to prevent haze, or to create permanent haze in NEIPAs and wheat beers.  It seems some pieces of the puzzle are missing.  Maybe some of us have been inadvertently promoting the wrong effect? I'll try listening again when I get a chance, but I'm not hearing just how these applications work.  If anyone has teased out the details of this, please share!
Rob Stein
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2018, 10:54:57 am »
Yesterday I re-listened to the MBAA podcast (ep.40) with Joe Formanek on gallotannin and beer stabilization.  For FLAVOR stability, he recommends it at mashing in, where it will chelate "excess" iron and copper -- not all, just "excess," and just how much is not specified.  So far so good.  For COLLOIDAL stability, he says the ideal use is in the bright tank, but if your process won't accommodate,  you can get some benefit with a late kettle addition.  This is where it gets interesting.  He says this addition can be used either to prevent haze, or to create permanent haze in NEIPAs and wheat beers.  It seems some pieces of the puzzle are missing.  Maybe some of us have been inadvertently promoting the wrong effect? I'll try listening again when I get a chance, but I'm not hearing just how these applications work.  If anyone has teased out the details of this, please share!

I haven’t listened to that, but there is another product for permanent haze, Tanal A.

https://wyeastlab.com/brewtan
https://wyeastlab.com/tanal
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Offline stpug

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2018, 11:10:34 am »
Nice to see this thread opened back up.  I've been following along (quietly) and couldn't figure out what prompted it's closing. ???  So anyway, cheers to keeping the discussion going  ;D

Offline denny

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2018, 11:22:06 am »
Yesterday I re-listened to the MBAA podcast (ep.40) with Joe Formanek on gallotannin and beer stabilization.  For FLAVOR stability, he recommends it at mashing in, where it will chelate "excess" iron and copper -- not all, just "excess," and just how much is not specified.  So far so good.  For COLLOIDAL stability, he says the ideal use is in the bright tank, but if your process won't accommodate,  you can get some benefit with a late kettle addition.  This is where it gets interesting.  He says this addition can be used either to prevent haze, or to create permanent haze in NEIPAs and wheat beers.  It seems some pieces of the puzzle are missing.  Maybe some of us have been inadvertently promoting the wrong effect? I'll try listening again when I get a chance, but I'm not hearing just how these applications work.  If anyone has teased out the details of this, please share!

I haven’t listened to that, but there is another product for permanent haze, Tanal A.

https://wyeastlab.com/brewtan
https://wyeastlab.com/tanal

Yeah, I assume he wasn't thinking of BtB for haze promotion.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2018, 12:15:53 pm »
Joe can certainly correct us if we are wrong, but at a presentation last year he said that the Tanal A is for sustaining haze, but either can be added in the late boil for the intended effect - BTB for shelf stability and clarity and Tanal A for sustaining haziness/suspended solids.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2018, 12:44:40 pm »
Nice to see this thread opened back up.  I've been following along (quietly) and couldn't figure out what prompted it's closing. ???  So anyway, cheers to keeping the discussion going  ;D

None of the mods could figure it out either. Possibly my cat walked on my keyboard.

Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2018, 12:46:21 pm »
Yesterday I re-listened to the MBAA podcast (ep.40) with Joe Formanek on gallotannin and beer stabilization.  For FLAVOR stability, he recommends it at mashing in, where it will chelate "excess" iron and copper -- not all, just "excess," and just how much is not specified.  So far so good.  For COLLOIDAL stability, he says the ideal use is in the bright tank, but if your process won't accommodate,  you can get some benefit with a late kettle addition.

In general we try to do the following (the "Royal We", i.e. LOB folks):

1.) Use a false bottom AND a mash bag for filtering;
2.) Use the recommended amount of BTB/Gallotannins in the mash;
3.) No Sparge with constant recirculation and evenly distributed return (usually LocLine circle flow) at the top

We typically are not using the false bottom for filtering, but more to lift the bag of the bottom of the kettle and provide maximum surface area for recirculation through the grain bed. The Brew bag has a fine enough mesh to actually to keep out very small bits of grain, lipids, protein materials, etc. Recirculation ends up setting a very nice grain bed that further helps with filtering. Then we runoff so we don't have to disturb it.

If using Antioxin SBT (10% gallotannins), we supplement with additional BTB up to the manufacturer's recommended value.

If you read some of the literature on gallotannins in beer production, you'll see it drops out certain protiens in all stages where they can form haze, i.e. mash, kettle, KO, etc.

This is from "Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP" by Withouck, Boeykens, Jaskula, Goiris, De Rouck, Hugelier, and Aerts:

From Abstract
"The lowest gallotannin levels (wort boiling: 5 g/hL; contact time in boiling kettle: 3 minutes) are already sufficient to obtain enhanced stability due to adequate removal of haze-sensitive proteins. Lowering pH at mashing-in also results in improved physico-chemical properties and flavour stability."

From Introduction
"Interactions between haze active polyphenols (proanthocyanidins) and proteins can result in irreversible bounding which has a negative impact on the "shelf life" of beer. Also, polysaccharides, metal ions and minerals can be responsible for the forming of haze.The composition of the raw materials is a first important parameter. During mashing (emphasis added), wort boiling, fermentation and maturation, haze can be formed and removed. The pH is critical in obtaining maximum protein precipitation. To improve hot break removal after wort boiling, the pH of the wort should be between 5.0 and 5.2 (emphasis added because this is something we do at the 10 minute mark).

Gallotannins are known to act as radical scavengers, metal-chelating agents and anti-oxidants (emphasis added to highlight that this isnt in the active sense, i.e. sulfites, but in the removal of compounds that can participate in oxidation reactions). Besides these characteristics they are also very effective in coagulation and flocculation of thiol-containing proteins (emphasis added, more in a moment)."

I am having trouble pulling some Bamforth snippets that talked about the removal of foam negative thiol-containing proteins, so when i find them i'll post them here.

Long story short: I think the way to improved stability is process based AND can be helped greatly by adding some form of gallotannins in the mash. We try hard to get good hot AND cold break in the kettle as well and remove ALL of it.

Clear beer into the kettle (as noted by the lengths we take above) leads to clearer beer into the the fermenter and is more stable for US! (emphasis added because different strokes and YMMV), especially since we are in a complete low oxygen environment all the way to packaging, so trub and lipids and metals and bad proteins react very differently in a low oxygen environment. We tend to not even have to worry about colloidal stability issues following the above, so mostly we use gallotannins to drop out lipids and bad proteins in with the spent grains.

Also, I'm going back to using my tap water so i'll be using it to chelate iron, etc.

To wind back to the original topic after all of this, I think maybe i'll start bumping calcium up to 60 ppm instead of 40 ppm. I'm definitely keeping gallotannins in the mix.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 12:49:33 pm by Big Monk »

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2018, 02:16:25 pm »
Thanks, all, for clearing that up (pun intended.) Anyway, as I said my next step is to both employ Brewtan B and raise calcium levels; as for dosage, thanks, Big Monk, for the bit suggesting 5g/hL in the boil, I was unsure what the minimum effective dose might be.  Any idea what a minimum would be for mashing in (I do sparge) when using RO water?
Rob Stein
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Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2018, 02:20:55 pm »
Thanks, all, for clearing that up (pun intended.) Anyway, as I said my next step is to both employ Brewtan B and raise calcium levels; as for dosage, thanks, Big Monk, for the bit suggesting 5g/hL in the boil, I was unsure what the minimum effective dose might be.  Any idea what a minimum would be for mashing in (I do sparge) when using RO water?

I’m not sure Rob. I do not sparge and treat with 0.068 g/l in my strike water. I would think that if you wanted to treat your sparge water and strike water both, you could follow that same dosing based on the volumes.

Those are based on the numbers quoted at the Wyeast website.

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2018, 02:37:06 pm »
Thanks.  I think I need to take time to clear my head and digest all this for a couple of weeks -- do a couple of pre-Prohibition corn beers, do like old times and use plenty of calcium and some Irish moss,  and come back to the modern world fresh after that.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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