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Author Topic: Experiment tying some threads together  (Read 10743 times)

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2018, 11:58:15 am »
Per Joe Formanek in response to my question about chelation of Ca by BTB:

“Dove further into this, and found that Tannic acid does not form complexes with Ca. The only thing you can expect to happen is ordinary salt formation. Considering that tannic acid is a weak acid the latter will only occur provided Ca is present as Ca(OH)2 or as a salt of an even weaker other acid.
Since “tannin” and “tannic acid” are often used as synonyms, even in scientific literature, there often is ambiguity about the botanical origin and chemical composition of the product in  such references. This is important to keep in mind as calcium tannate in tea, which is sparingly soluble, is chemically not the same thing as the calcium salt that could form using Brewtan Tannic acid.
So - while you might have a calcium salt form if a solution is dehydrated, the actual coordination and chelation of Ca ions does not occur like it does for Fe.
Hope this helps!!
Joe”

And I hope this helps, too.  Cheers!
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2018, 01:37:41 pm »
Well now I'm confused again, because my little test yesterday seems to confirm whatever studies Martin had read -- 10-15ppm Ca definitely went somewhere.  Anyway, like Martin has said, it's not likely to matter in most cases.  I just wrapped up a brew day, and happily used the BTB again (and as many other LODO precautions as my brewery will accomodate,) and calcium will surely not be a problem, as I had plenty of salts just for stylistic reasons. Thanks for getting the horse's mouth to chime in!
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #77 on: May 26, 2018, 10:37:56 am »
To follow up:  After a busy week, I had the chance to repeat the above-mentioned water test a few times.  Joe F says gallotannin does not chelate Ca.  Now, I hate to question authority (riiight... ::)) but calcium keeps disappearing, and the higher the dose of BTB,  the more calcium goes away.  Somehow BTB is removing calcium.  That's all I know.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline BrewBama

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Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #78 on: May 26, 2018, 10:58:02 am »
Robert, are you also using Ascorbic Acid and/or Potassium or Sodium Metabisulfate (aka the ‘Trifecta’ mix)?

...and is your spent grain and break a slightly pink-ish color?

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« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 10:59:44 am by BrewBama »

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #79 on: May 26, 2018, 11:11:58 am »
Robert, are you also using Ascorbic Acid and/or Potassium or Sodium Metabisulfate (aka the ‘Trifecta’ mix)?

...and is your spent grain and break a slightly pink-ish color?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Just started using NaMeta, before it was just BTB, and no, never any color change in the water or the grains.  There's very little iron in my water -- and until the last brew, all the batches with BTB were RO anyway.  And the water tests I've done, of course, had no NaMeta added. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline denny

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #80 on: May 26, 2018, 11:16:29 am »
To follow up:  After a busy week, I had the chance to repeat the above-mentioned water test a few times.  Joe F says gallotannin does not chelate Ca.  Now, I hate to question authority (riiight... ::)) but calcium keeps disappearing, and the higher the dose of BTB,  the more calcium goes away.  Somehow BTB is removing calcium.  That's all I know.

I missed it somewhere...how do you know you're losing Ca?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #81 on: May 26, 2018, 11:24:29 am »
To follow up:  After a busy week, I had the chance to repeat the above-mentioned water test a few times.  Joe F says gallotannin does not chelate Ca.  Now, I hate to question authority (riiight... ::)) but calcium keeps disappearing, and the higher the dose of BTB,  the more calcium goes away.  Somehow BTB is removing calcium.  That's all I know.

I missed it somewhere...how do you know you're losing Ca?
Water test kit for calcium.  Beerery suggested (reply #64) sending samples with and without BTB to Ward Labs and I took the DIY approach.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline denny

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #82 on: May 26, 2018, 11:28:46 am »
To follow up:  After a busy week, I had the chance to repeat the above-mentioned water test a few times.  Joe F says gallotannin does not chelate Ca.  Now, I hate to question authority (riiight... ::)) but calcium keeps disappearing, and the higher the dose of BTB,  the more calcium goes away.  Somehow BTB is removing calcium.  That's all I know.

I missed it somewhere...how do you know you're losing Ca?
Water test kit for calcium.  Beerery suggested (reply #64) sending samples with and without BTB to Ward Labs and I took the DIY approach.

Cool...thanks.  I think I'd want to have the result verified by a lab, though.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #83 on: May 26, 2018, 11:41:24 am »
To follow up:  After a busy week, I had the chance to repeat the above-mentioned water test a few times.  Joe F says gallotannin does not chelate Ca.  Now, I hate to question authority (riiight... ::)) but calcium keeps disappearing, and the higher the dose of BTB,  the more calcium goes away.  Somehow BTB is removing calcium.  That's all I know.

I missed it somewhere...how do you know you're losing Ca?
Water test kit for calcium.  Beerery suggested (reply #64) sending samples with and without BTB to Ward Labs and I took the DIY approach.

Cool...thanks.  I think I'd want to have the result verified by a lab, though.
Yeah, it has occurred to me that it's possible BTB is somehow interfering with the indicator or reagent in my test kit. But in practice,  I just won't go with such minimally mineralized water as when I started this, just in case the effect is real. Outside of Pilsners, it would probably never be an issue. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.