Author Topic: Experiment tying some threads together  (Read 2802 times)

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2018, 01:10:44 AM »
^^^^
Thanks, I look forward to it.  My inclination is to do nothing until I understand what I'm doing, then use the minimum effective dose.  The less BTB I use, the less calcium I lose (and you know by now I love my calcium) which means I can add less of that too...

I use a satchet of Antioxin SBT that Bryan was kind enough to send me a while back. That is 45/45/10% of Potassium Metabisulfite/Ascorbic Acid/Gallotannins, respectively. I would have no issues supplementing that up to 0.068 g/l with BrewTan B.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2018, 01:19:01 AM »
Derek, when you do get these materials together, will they go up on your sticky?  Don't want fundamental info to fade from view with this thread, and it sounds like you have something beyond the scope of the promotional materials.
Rob Stein
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2018, 01:26:34 AM »
Derek, when you do get these materials together, will they go up on your sticky?  Don't want fundamental info to fade from view with this thread, and it sounds like you have something beyond the scope of the promotional materials.

Yes. We need to do a real major re-org and upload on our site to get up to date. We are hopefully going to be going through the hundreds of papers in the next few months and sort them in the brewing references page.

The textbooks we obviously can’t make publicaly available and we only have digital copies for ourselves but the papers alone are a goldmine on a number of topics, including flavor stability, process, etc.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2018, 02:17:21 AM »
And, back to the very beginning, I'd still like to know just how much calcium BTB chelates. 
Rob Stein
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Offline The Beerery

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2018, 02:29:55 AM »
And, back to the very beginning, I'd still like to know just how much calcium BTB chelates.

Easy.  Send 2 samples to ward labs.  One stock and one with btb.


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2018, 02:56:11 AM »
So, the chelation affect is referenced here:

http://lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Officiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf

Reference 28 is here:

http://blogs.cornell.edu/siebert/index/abstracts/abs101/

So, I reached out to Professor Siebert at Cornell for the full paper.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2018, 11:25:14 AM »
And, back to the very beginning, I'd still like to know just how much calcium BTB chelates.

Okay.

First, my opinion:

I see no theoretical or empirical evidence that gallotannins chelate non-metallic cations any appreciable amount. In fact, I haven't seen anything that says it does at all. That is not a slag on Martin or his experience, just merely my observation.

With that said, here is the development of this topic in retrospect as I see it:

It seems to have started here:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31388.msg408921#msg408921

where Martin says the following:

Brewtan B is a gallotannin that does chelate cations from water. As frequently mentioned in research, Brewtan B does remove iron and copper cations from the water, which helps avoid Fenton reactions. However, calcium and magnesium are also cations that succumb to the gallotannin's effects. You can expect a small reduction in concentrations of these ions with Brewtan B usage.

EDIT I'm also guessing if we needed to be aware of any effect on Ca, the makers of BTB would put it in the technical information they put out. I find nothing.

The makers have not, but there are other sources of gallotannin. I don't recall where I saw it, but there is a journal article somewhere that told of calcium drop with gallotannin use. I recall that the level was in the 10 to 20 ppm range. Not enough to really be concerned with. In addition, yeast do not need ANY calcium in the water for them to function well enough. The only concern would be a slowing in the flocculation and clearing of the beer.

Also, we have it said here, although i think this is just piggybacking off the previous assertion:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31213.msg406205#msg406205

Gallotannins are known to chelate any free divalent metals in the wort, including Ca and Mg. I've seen research articles that showed something like 20 ppm Ca reduction. I suppose that we should be considering this effect when using gallotannin products.

Now for an assumption: I think Martin may have read the same De Rouck, Et al. piece that we have tossed arround the past 24 hours, in which they say the following:

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Officiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf

Quote
"All beers were brewed with 9.56 kg of dry coarse (two-roller) milled pilsner malt (Bavaria Malt, The Netherlands) and 36 litre of reverse osmosis water with addition of 40 ppm Ca2+ for the reference beer and 60 ppm Ca2+ for the beer stabilised with gallotannins. It proved important to add extra calcium at mashing-in in order to compensate for the expected chelating effect of gallotannins [28]."

So my inquisitive spirit led me to search out the reference made:

Quote
...chelating effect of gallotannins [28][/i][/b]."

(On the Mechanisms of Adsorbent Interactions with Haze-Active Protiens and Polyphenols)

and I reached out to Karl Siebert, Professor Emeritus in the Food Science Program at Cornell and former Director of Research at Stroh, who wrote the referenced article:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8F3C1boHghNZl9PVEtwR0kzY0NtQTNfSHFlS1Zvb3pNcXBn

Professor Siebert did not remember any reference to calcium chelation, nor did I read anywhere in the paper about it, so my opinion would be:

1.) Either De Rouck, Et al. misinterpreted or erroneously referenced Siebert;

OR

2.) They meant to reference something else.

I looked deeper into the references and did not see one that had any mention of calcium chelation.

So my assertion is that if calcium chelation from gallotannins use is actually valid, it is going to be negligible and not as severe as the 20 ppm quoted in the De Rouck paper, i.e. I wouldn't concern myself with it.

EDIT: Of course, as Bryan pointed out before, there needn't be any guess work here. Prepare two test mashes, one with gallotannins and one without, while holding Ca constant, and send them for analysis.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 03:26:12 PM by Big Monk »
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2018, 07:20:29 PM »
And, back to the very beginning, I'd still like to know just how much calcium BTB chelates.

Easy.  Send 2 samples to ward labs.  One stock and one with btb.


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Good idea.

The quick and dirty:

Got a test kit from an aquarium supply shop, the type I used to monitor my supply before switching to RO.  These kits (from Salifert) are reputed for high accuracy, though on this small scale the precision is not as fine as a lab would afford.  That said:

I prepared two 1L water samples and tested them at 35ppm and 135ppm Ca.  I dosed each at the middling 5g/hL rate.   I let each stand 5 min and tested again.  Each sample showed a reduction in Ca of at least 10ppm but apparently less than 15ppm (the test's precision being limited to increments of 5ppm.)

So, depending on dosage and just how long the reaction requires, it appears that the 10-20ppm suggestion of Martin's is quite plausible. 

Provisionally,  I will use this as my guideline in planning water treatment.  I will go forward using BTB but being careful to keep my calcium up a bit.

Others might proceed differently, but it seems the chelation of calcium is real.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2018, 08:05:09 PM »
I'm just parroting the chelation effect that was reported in other research articles.

Calcium is another divalent metal ion that should be just as subject to chelation as the copper and iron that the manufacturer reports its effective with.

Since calcium is not really critical to a ferment or yeast performance, losing 10 to 20 ppm should not be a significant concern.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2018, 08:14:22 PM »
I'm just parroting the chelation effect that was reported in other research articles.

Calcium is another divalent metal ion that should be just as subject to chelation as the copper and iron that the manufacturer reports its effective with.

Since calcium is not really critical to a ferment or yeast performance, losing 10 to 20 ppm should not be a significant concern.
It was significant to me as I was already pushing the lower limit I could have without extending the lagering cycle to achieve good clarification.  That was the genesis of my inquiry, and it seems my initial hunch is supported.  I agree it is not significant if you already have excess calcium for your particular needs.  This is still good to know, as everything is good to know.
Rob Stein
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2018, 08:28:16 PM »
I am wondering out loud if it is a matter of controlling pH within the normal acidic range to inhibit/minimize Ca chelation by BTB..., but I am going to see what I can find out from a good source.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2018, 11:01:08 PM »
You guys have mostly covered the dosage but thought I’d post this anyway


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2018, 11:57:39 PM »
You guys have mostly covered the dosage but thought I’d post this anyway


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Those are the exact numbers Wyeast quotes.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2018, 11:10:41 AM »
Makes sense since I order my directly from Wyeast. I actually never noticed it said "Brewer's Choice" before.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Experiment tying some threads together
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2018, 11:26:34 AM »
I recall that the packaging and distribution arrangement was holding up the homebrew availability of BTB when they (Ajinomoto) were working on the smaller sized packaging for homebrew markets, so Brewer’s Best must have one such distribution right, then through Wyeast, perhaps?
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